How would you like to be treated by law-enforcement?

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  • EPD1102

    Sharpshooter
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    I am a retired police officer. I now do some training with law-enforcement agencies. I have read a lot of posts on here by people who felt they were treated badly by police, especially when open-carrying. I would like to ask the members on here how they would train officers to deal with someone who is open-carrying. Please try to put yourselves in the shoes of a training officer who is teaching new officers how to respond to these situations and calls.
    Some of the rules that I would like for us to abide by are:
    1. Can we please keep this civil and professional?
    2. Remember that there are bad people who carry guns too and not everyone who is open-carrying is automatically a good guy.
    3. Most officers who approach someone who is open-carrying are doing so because they are responding to a dispatched run about that person. The officer has a responsibility to their community to do their job and investigate why this person has a gun and to confirm that they are legal if they are dispatched to do so.
    Thank You

    After reading through the first seven pages that were on here as of 11-21-12, here is what I think I'm getting from you guys. Please let me know if this sounds right.
    You understand that it is illegal to carry a handgun in Indiana unless you have a permit. (Or license. I apologize to the poster who believes me to be ignorant because I called the license a permit. I've been around for a while and we used to always call them a Triple-P or Personal Protection Permit.)
    As such, you understand that an officer can approach you and ask for your permit, especially if someone calls in about you. Please realize that the dispatchers at every 911 center that I know are civilians and are not familiar with the laws. Also, a lot of citizens cannot be easily convinced that it is okay for someone to walk down the street with a firearm. I am not criticizing OC by this statement, I'm just pointing out that a lot of people are ignorant about guns and gun laws.
    You want to be treated respectfully as a law-abiding citizen and you will do the same to the officer.
    You do not want to have to turn over your firearm to the officer for any reason.
    Does that all sound right? I like where the dialog has gone so far and I appreciate the input on this. Thanks Again.
    One thing that I disagree with is the stereotyping that criminals don't use holsters or high-quality firearms. They do use both. If you look in a major city's evidence room like Evansville P.D., you'll see Kimbers, Glocks, Sigs, Desert Eagles, or whatever else. Most of the guns used by criminals are stolen. If the gun had a holster when they stole it, they will often use the holster too. I also know that a lot of good people don't use holsters and can't afford to carry what I consider to be high-quality firearms.

    Just as you would not stop or respond to a call that someone might be driving without a license and cannot lawfully stop every car just to check if the driver is licensed, I would prefer that you not approach or stop me at all unless you have something more than a hunch that I'm doing something wrong.
    You are right that we don't stop everyone to check to see if they have a driver's license. If we receive a complaint about an unlicensed driver, we do follow up on it. I personally have one case that went to the Indiana Court of Appeals on just such an incident. See Coates v. State of Indiana, 650 N.E. 2d 58 (1995), court of Appeals of Indiana of Indiana, First District. I don't know about every jurisdiction in Indiana but most departments send officers to every run that they receive.
    Based on this case that the police can stop someone when they have a specific complaint, I don't think the Supreme Court case of Delaware v. Prouse as listed in several posts would stop the police from checking with someone to verify they they have a license to carry, especially if the police are responding to a complaint. I agree that our dispatchers could try to verify the complaint before sending an officer and that is also something that we can work on.

    Anyone else find it interesting EPD1102 started the thread 3days ago and NOT comminted sence??
    intrapment?
    court case coming up soon???
    I have commented by updating my original post. I haven't commented with additional posts because I'm asking for others' opinions and not just giving my opinions. I am not involved in any legal cases and I'm not looking at getting into a bunch of petty arguing. I am just trying to make things better at the agencies that I train with. Thanks for your lack of trust though :)
    Also, it was deer season so I've been hunting.

    Tinner666 sent me some info from the Utah Department of Public Safety http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FAQ.html#2
    Question: If I get stopped by a police officer, do I, as a permit holder, have to tell the officer that I have a gun in my possession?
    Answer: Although there is no legal requirement to identify yourself to a law enforcement officer, it is recommended to do so.
    If an officer finds or sees a gun on your person during their contact with you, and you have not identified yourself as a permit holder in legal possession of a firearm, the officer may assume you are carrying the gun illegally and may take defensive action. For the safety of all involved, it is recommended to immediately identify yourself to the officer as a permit holder in possession of a handgun. This action gives the officer some assurance they are most likely dealing with a law abiding citizen.

    I agree that this is probably a good idea so that the officer isn't "surprised" by seeing a gun on you. I have always identified myself as carrying when encountered by police and I have always appreciated when people told me they were carrying. In my experience, I was always more likely to give a break to people lawfully carrying because I figured that they probably had a clean criminal history or they wouldn't have had a carry permit. I appreciate your input on this too guys. Thanks
     
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    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Mar 22, 2011
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    Couple of thoughts to start off with:

    Don't lecture us on your preferred method of carry or your opinion of the wisdom of carrying period.

    Enforce the law. Don't make up the ones you'd like to see enacted.

    Treat your contacts as you'd like to be treated. On those MWAG calls, I'd like to see the officers inform the caller (assuming they're available) of the laws.

    :popcorn:
     
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    rockhopper46038

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    If it is indeed that agency's policy to respond to all MWAG calls, then I would suggest something like this:

    "Excuse me sir, may I please see your license to carry a handgun?"

    "Thank you, have a nice day".
     

    VERT

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    Investigate and confirm that the person in question has a valid LTCH.

    Leave holstered guns in the holster where fingers can't touch the trigger. Remove the gun only if it is necessary. (This goes for traffic stops as well)

    Finish business quickly and with courtesy.
     

    youngda9

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    I would like to be completely ignored unless you have suspicion that I am breaking a law. That goes for OC also, leave the person alone for exercising their rights. MWAG calls should result in the caller being informed of the law.

    See post #3 for how to do a license check.

    Don't touch my gun, ever.
     
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    1. If you are not responding to a MWAG call then leave me alone, if I would have nefarious intentions in mind I would not be walking by a police officer with my gun in plan view. You can approach me and we can talk about guns for a while but don't treat me like a criminal.

    2. If you are responding to a MWAG call tell me so when you approach me. I'm a reasonable person and will comply with you request right away. I understand that you are doing your job and will make every effort to make it as easy on you and me as possible.

    3. Don't make up laws that don't exist and remember that you are there to enforce the law, not your personal opinions.

    4. Treat me with respect and you will get same in return.
     
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    I would like to be completely ignored unless you have suspicion that I am breaking a law. That goes for OC also, leave the person alone for exercising their rights. MWAG calls should result in the caller being informed of the law.

    See post #3 for how to do a license check.

    Don't touch my gun, ever.

    This right here is all that needs to be said, well put.
     

    Rookie

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    I would like to be left alone. If, for some reason, you decide you have to talk to me, how about...

    Officer: excuse me, do you have a license to carry?
    Me: yes, sir.
    Officer: ok, have a nice day.

    End of encounter.
     

    downzero

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    3. Most officers who approach someone who is open-carrying are doing so because they are responding to a dispatched run about that person. The officer has a responsibility to their community to do their job and investigate why this person has a gun and to confirm that they are legal if they are dispatched to do so.
    Thank You

    Just as you would not stop or respond to a call that someone might be driving without a license and cannot lawfully stop every car just to check if the driver is licensed, I would prefer that you not approach or stop me at all unless you have something more than a hunch that I'm doing something illegal.

    I hope (but I doubt this day will ever come), that the presence of a firearm will cease to be a presumption that I'm up to no good. Case in point: every cop has a gun. I don't assume that they are all up to no good just because they carry a firearm and expect to be able to protect themselves.
     

    homer12

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    Give respect to get respect in return. The second someone doesn't give an LEO respect in return is reason to be more guarded. No reason to drag out the encounter other than what is bare minumum procedure.
     

    Birds Away

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    Without reasonable suspicion, why have an interaction at all?

    Also, how about a cookie? :rockwoot:








    well, I thought it was worth a try.:D
     

    CitiusFortius

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    I would like to ask the members on here how they would train officers to deal with someone who is open-carrying.

    I think it starts with the approach. I know you should never let your guard down, however, what criminal open carries in a holster?

    Think about criminals for a second. Either the gun is hidden to be pulled out when beginning the robbery, or the gun is in hand ready to be used.

    So I'd say, give the person the benefit of the doubt as it is highly unlikely that somebody with an open, holstered firearm is the bad guy.
     

    Rookie

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    Give respect to get respect in return. The second someone doesn't give an LEO respect in return is reason to be more guarded. No reason to drag out the encounter other than what is bare minumum procedure.

    If it was actually a bare minimum procedure, then it wouldn't really be an issue, but it rarely is.

    Respect is earned. Courtesy is a given until the person doesn't deserve it.
     

    GetA2J

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    Just as you would not stop or respond to a call that someone might be driving without a license and cannot lawfully stop every car just to check if the driver is licensed, I would prefer that you not approach or stop me at all unless you have something more than a hunch that I'm doing something illegal.

    I hope (but I doubt this day will ever come), that the presence of a firearm will cease to be a presumption that I'm up to no good. Case in point: every cop has a gun. I don't assume that they are all up to no good just because they carry a firearm and expect to be able to protect themselves.


    I like the way downzero put his response. "I can only hope that the presence of a firearm will cease to be a presumption that I'm up to no good. Every Law Enforcement Officer has a gun and I don't automatically assume that they are up to no good....." although there are some police officers who feel that they have a right to make up laws selfserving their power trip to make certain that no-one except them is offered the RIGHT of personal security. The fact remains that if a person you are interacting with has a valid license to carry an handgun, that person should be presumed law abiding and friendly (even if you are stopping them for a speeding infraction, or a MWG call)
    In answer to your direct question... I would like law enforcement to treat me with the same respect and demeaner that they expect from me.
     
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    N8RV

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    .... MWAG calls should result in the caller being informed of the law...

    Good thread idea, as long as comments follow the OP's rules and requests.

    The best time to nip any unnecessary encounters is when the MWAG call is made. Face it -- most IN residents, including long-time gun owners, are completely ignorant of carry laws. If 911 operators knew the laws and could simply ask the caller, "What is the man with the gun doing? Is he threatening anyone with his gun?" perhaps no officer would need to be dispatched at all.

    "Ma'am, are you aware that any IN resident who passes a required background check and possesses a license to do so can carry guns around in plain view?"

    "Why, no, I didn't know that. Are you sure it's legal? It scares me."

    "I'm sorry it scares you, ma'am, but if he's not threatening you or anyone else, he's likely carrying his gun legally. Do you still want me to send a police officer?"

    "I guess not. I didn't know ..."
     

    Valvestate

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    If for whatever reason a LEO feels compelled to ask to see a permission slip on a M/WWAG call, it would help carriers a bit to be more accepted in society to let the original person that complained know that so-and-so is licensed and should be nobody to worry about after verifying it . Maybe throw in a 'they're here for the same thing you are'. Restaurant=food, zoo=spend time with the fam/see animals, etc.

    Edit: As said on page one, throw a little law knowledge at the person reporting the M/WWAG, too.
     
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    rooster

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    excuse me sir, please keep your hands away from your weapon and do not make sudden movements. I just need to verify that you have a LTCH and you may be on your way.
    Thank you,your free to be on your way

    I understand the concerns for officer safety as I am sure most do at some level.
    I think that covers concerns for officer safety while at the same time not humiliating someone who you have no probable cause to arrest.

    No one who openly carries should be butt hurt simply for being stopped and asked for verification.It is usually the manner of treatment of the open carrier that causes the distaste for the LEO.
     
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