OC at NRA convention with Illinois CCW

[04FXSTS]

The Illinois CCW specifies "concealed or mostly concealed" no "open carry" on an Illinois permit. It is my understanding that means OC would not be legal anywhere in Indiana with an Illinois CCW. Just asking because it is being discussed over at Illinois Carry, I always carry concealed so it doesnt matter to me personally. Will OC be allowed there for Indiana permit holders? Thanks, Jim.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

"according to the terms thereof"

 

[actaeon277]

I am not a lawyer.
And I'm on a cell phone, so my research power is limited.
So my post means nothing.

But my understanding was that you have to follow the laws of the state that you are in.
At the convention, you have to follow the laws of Indiana.

But you better wait for someone better qualified than me.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

1. Have them look at I.C. 35-47-2-21(b), Indiana's universal recognition of carry licenses.

2. Note that by the statutory language you must carry according to the terms thereof (your carry license). Restrictive states such as Illlinois or Texas must conceal.

3. Carry as if they are in Illinois and they will be fine.

4. Please remind them to keep them in the holster and do not play with them on the convention floor.

 

[actaeon277]

That sucks

 

[04FXSTS]

I have the Illinois and Florida which both specify "concealed." I also have the Utah which does specify open or concealed so with that I should be ok with the Utah. Like I said in my OP it doesn't matter personally because I am not comfortable with OC. The answers basicly affirm what I allready understood about the subject. Thanks again, Jim.

 

[NavyVet]

I would err on the side of the most restrictive interpretation of your license compared to the rules of the state you are in. If your license specifies concealed only, that is how I would carry (if your license is accepted in the state you are visiting). I would only open-carry if you are in a constitutional-carry state (no license provided).

Ultimately, any encounter with a local LEO is going to leave you under his interpretation. Better to be safe than sorry.

 

[ATM]

I, of course, disagree.

While there are prohibitions upon carrying unconcealed in Illinois (like Texas and just a few other states), these prohibitions are found in their state laws, not as terms of the license itself.

The license does not restrict, it provides exception to law.

Indiana law requires one to be licensed to carry a handgun. Once satisfied, there are no special exceptions needed for exposure or concealment. You may carry according to the restrictions and exceptions of Indiana law.

Before returning to Illinois, just make sure to conceal again.

 

[Denny347]

1. Have them look at I.C. 35-47-2-21(b), Indiana's universal recognition of carry licenses.

2. Note that by the statutory language you must carry according to the terms thereof (your carry license). Restrictive states such as Illlinois or Texas must conceal.

3. Carry as if they are in Illinois and they will be fine.

4. Please remind them to keep them in the holster and do not play with them on the convention floor.

Did I miss something? They do not address the punishment for violating Section 21. Its left out of the violations section. There is nothing I could do to enforce Section 21. Quite frankly, you have a valid permit from anywhere in the US, I could care less how you carry it. When in Rome...



IC 35-47-2-23 Version a
Violations; classes of misdemeanors and felonies
Note: This version of section effective until 7-1-2014. See also following repeal of this section, effective 7-1-2014.
Sec. 23. (a) A person who violates section 3, 4, 5, 14, 15, or 16 of this chapter commits a Class B misdemeanor.
(b) A person who violates section 7, 17, or 18 of this chapter commits a Class C felony.
(c) A person who violates section 1 of this chapter commits a Class A misdemeanor. However, the offense is a Class C felony:
(1) if the offense is committed:
(A) on or in school property;
(B) within one thousand (1,000) feet of school property; or
(C) on a school bus; or
(2) if the person:
(A) has a prior conviction of any offense under:
(i) this subsection; or

---

(ii) subsection (d); or
(B) has been convicted of a felony within fifteen (15) years before the date of the offense.
(d) A person who violates section 22 of this chapter commits a Class A misdemeanor. However, the offense is a Class D felony if the person has a prior conviction of any offense under this subsection or subsection (c), or if the person has been convicted of a felony within fifteen (15) years before the date of the offense.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.16-1984, SEC.20; P.L.140-1994, SEC.9; P.L.17-1997, SEC.7.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

No, not missing anything, but it is §1, Denny. §21 just provides a defense to the crime that one is committing of carrying a handgun.

As a visitor, if you do not have a license from another state or nation, then you are carrying a handgun without a license, a Class A misdemeanor.

While there are prohibitions upon carrying unconcealed in Illinois (like Texas and just a few other states), these prohibitions are found in their state laws, not as terms of the license itself.

Some states have licenses with terms such as concealment (Illinois). Some states have (or had) license which specify the type of handgun one may carry (Texas, some counties in CA and NV).

IL law does not govern in Indiana but in order to be valid in IN one must carry according to the terms of the IL license.

Now, I readily admit:

1. I have never seen this prosecuted.

2. IME most cops just care that you have a license and not the terms of your state.

 

[ATM]

If you can find someone willing to attempt charging you for carrying without being licensed in Indiana for simply open carrying on a valid handgun license or permit from another state (even one which says concealed), I'll pay for your bail and for Kirk to defend you in court against the misdemeanor.

Any such attempt would be ridiculously amusing and easily beaten.

 

[VERT]

Both my Florida and Utah license use the term concealed.

Florida - concealed weapon or firearm license
Utah - concealed firearms permit

 

[Paul30]

My opinion only, not worth a dime in court so talk to a lawyer to be sure. Some states have specific restrictions on how and what you can carry. My understanding is if a state honors your license, then it is like you have a license in their state and you follow all laws while in that state as if you had their license. If your state is a CCW license but you are visiting a state requires only open carry, then you would have to open carry. If Indiana does not specify open or concealed, and you visit a state that requires concealed then you must conceal. Different laws on where you can carry, if you "must inform" an officer if pulled over, etc. It would be nice to have a legal expert chime in here, but that is how I understand it. Cheap plug for CCW app , it gives you all the rules for each state.

Applying this to the OP I would believe it would be just fine to open carry while visiting Indiana at the NRA convention, or anywhere else in the state that carry is legal.

 

[HoughMade]

Kirk is 100% correct in his interpretation. If you want to be completely legal and hold a license (permit) from a state that only allows concealed carry licenses (permits), you have to follow that or you are violating Indiana law.

However, when you tip over into "well what are the chances it will be enforced?", well, who knows? Stopped or arrested for that alone? Maybe unlikely. How about an add-on charge when they charge you for something else and in the course of finding out of you are legally carrying, they find out you are not in compliance with your own carry license? More likely, but probably still rare....who knows?

As with everything in life, you assess the risk, make your choice, and move on.....then whine about it when the risk comes to fruition.

 

[cbhausen]

All this discussion emphasizes what a stupid patchwork of ridiculous, conflicting, and confusing carry laws exist today. How in the holy hell is anyone who travels from state to state supposed to follow this? And how in the hell does any of this prevent a single gun crime?

I know, I'm preaching to the choir. But sometimes you gotta vent...

 

[ATM]

Kirk is 100% correct in his interpretation. If you want to be completely legal and hold a license (permit) from a state that only allows concealed carry licenses (permits), you have to follow that or you are violating Indiana law...

If that interpretation made any sense, folks who can open carry without any license but require one only to conceal according to their state laws would be more restricted when carrying in Indiana than they are in their home state.

Nice try.

Your license is either valid or it isn't to except you from the Indiana prohibition upon unlicensed handgun carry. If the license itself specifically restricted open carry (rather than the laws of the issuing state), there might be a point to be made. Might.

 

[LP1]

Two questions:

1. Is ATM a lawyer? (I believe that Kirk Freeman and HoughMade are.)
2. If one has a non-resident license/permit from Candyland, are they required to carry in condition butterscotch?

 

[JettaKnight]

Since this is all armchair lawyering and there's no case law to back up either side, then I stick with ATM on this one. If not, does a LEO have to be versed in the laws regarding carry of 49 other states? Do MI visitors have duty to inform? No, I believe the section of law in question has more to do with other issues than where and how you can carry.

FYI, this has come up several times at INGO and no consensus has been reached.

 

[JettaKnight]

Two questions:

1. Is ATM a lawyer? (I believe that Kirk Freeman and HoughMade are.)
2. If one has a non-resident license/permit from Candyland, are they required to carry in condition butterscotch?

Lawyers have been know to interpret law incorrectly...

 

[actaeon277]

If you have a license recognized by Ohio, go to Ohio, you are required to inform when pulled over.
If you go to a state that says you can not conceal, then you can not conceal.
If you go to a state that says you can not open carry, then you can not open carry.

Why is the OP's question different?