WWJCD? (What Would Jeff Cooper Do?)

[Bill of Rights]

In another thread, a member posted a quote from Col. Cooper. I didn't want to that thread, so I moved the quote here.

The quote got me thinking about a discussion where the following incident was described:

At a public range, a person is seen acting noobish, leaving the line and returning after each shot.

This person is noted to not be reloading or racking to chamber after doing so, but sweeping everyone at the range on the trips back and forth after each shot.

Given this:

Sadly, I doubt they even know who Jeff Cooper is, let alone understand this:

"To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such."

...

WWJCD?

I would hope that he would have limited his reaction to a stern bark at the offending noob and whoever had brought them to the range, as opposed to careful shot placement of two in the chest and one in the brainpan, and then barking at the one(s) who brought the noob, if they were unarmed or not sweeping others.

Note that by "stern bark", I reference the proverbial "rip off your head and down your neck" / "gouge out your eyes and skull [CENSORED] you!" type of response, akin to Sgt Hartman's screaming match in the barracks when Pvt. Joker got his nickname.

However, the statement was "always". I highly respect the work Col Cooper did for firearms training, and his immense knowledge base. I know that some of his teachings have been either watered down or called into question, most notably the Four Rules, as noted here on INGO. I do not want this to become a Three Rules/Four Rules debate thread. I also recognize that the response would not have to be either/or, but the two I named are only two possibilities.

Thoughts?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

Peel his ass like a grape. It may well be that he was never properly instructed, but your best bet for his future safety, and your own, is to make sure he doesn't forget.

 

[Coach]

I have been swept by more people than I care to think about. In nearly every case the person had no idea what swept even meant. There are a number of ways to deal with this behavior and the offending person seldom approves of the cure, or understands the seriousness of problem. People need educated.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

1. Unleash Pat Rogers on him.

2, Have Louis Awerbuck give him an icy stare.

3. Have Clint Smith paint the Four Rules signs.

 

[riverman67]

This type of behavior is a problem
I'm not in the shoot them in the face camp but something has to be said.
I'm not tactful in these situations I'm not sure tact is even warranted.
The offending person isn't going to enjoy being informed that they are an idiot.

 

[IndyDave1776]

This type of behavior is a problem
I'm not in the shoot them in the face camp but something has to be said.
I'm not tactful in these situations I'm not sure tact is even warranted.
The offending person isn't going to enjoy being informed that they are an idiot.

All true--and you are absolutely right that unless you are dealing with an absolute beginner and have willfully signed on for such, tact is not warrant when some stupid SOB is endangering your life.

Then again, I have also experienced the reverse of this, generally in gun shops: I have been in the situation of giving a new gun a thorough examination including checking the feel in the firing position AFTER CAREFULLY SELECTING A SAFE DIRECTION only to have some stupid SOB make haste to walk in front of the gun.

 

[oldpink]

This type of behavior is a problem
I'm not in the shoot them in the face camp but something has to be said.
I'm not tactful in these situations I'm not sure tact is even warranted.
The offending person isn't going to enjoy being informed that they are an idiot.

There are select situations where tact is counterproductive.
This is one of those rare ones that require a very brusque approach.

 

[Anima mundi]

Safety is everyone's responsibility, first and foremost. If the range officer doesn't catch a safety violation because he's preoccupied with another issue, it's on the observer to speak up.

That said, there are plenty of ways more tactful and productive than just shouting down the offending party. Not all people learn from being put on the spot like that. I've pulled people aside and given them a low-key talking-to and just given them consistent reinforcement of safety principles over time and they almost always improve hugely. The few times it hasn't is with salty dogs who think they're too good to be reminded of basic safety practices. Those are the kinds of idiots you have to look out for no matter what, because they'll never learn.

It's anyone's guess what Old Man Jeff would do, and personally I don't care much for his opinions outside of his philosophies for gunfighting. I've only ever had to yell at someone once for flagging me with a loaded pistol and I don't much care for that approach if it's not totally necessary.

 

[rhino]

1. Unleash Pat Rogers on him.

2, Have Louis Awerbuck give him an icy stare.

3. Have Clint Smith paint the Four Rules signs.

1. Tough to do at this juncture.
2. Might still be possible, but I don't want to find out.
3. How much does that cost in 2017?

I've been swept many, many times. If you teach people how to use guns, it will happen regardless of how vigorously you try to instill fundamental risk-management knowledge and practices. It's never acceptable, but the response varies based on the circumstances.

In one of my first rifle classes, I was in front of the students talking and they were all supposed to be on sling (and they were before I went downrange from them). One of them for reasons still unknown decided to not only handle his 9mm AR, but mount it and point it at me. In retrospect, I should have immediately ejected that student from the class and premises, but it was so egregious and unexpected that I failed to follow-through properly. That won't happen again.

Far more common are situations where people are unaware of their muzzle directions when engaged in some activity like reloading, which is unacceptable, but at least it's not a deliberate act that endangers people.

 

[SSGSAD]

My answer, is ALL of the ABOVE, and maybe a swift kick, to the backside .....

 

[gregr]

All people respond strongly to primarily three things: Fear, Hunger, and Pain. It`s up to each individual to decide in the moment which of the two applicable things to use to reinforce not to do that, either fear or pain, but do something, one must. Make them afraid to do that again, or cause them to relate pain to that incident, but I won`t get shot.

 

[Bigtanker]

Is Jeff Cooper the guy who jumped out of a plane with lots of stolen money???



I have had this happen before and I usually say something in a respectful manner. I works most of the time.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I'm of two minds on it. First, thanks to all who have responded so far.

On the one hand, I can see scaring the holy hell out of someone to make it memorable to them: Don't do that again, because people react badly when you do stupid things that threaten their lives and/or safety.

On the other, I can also see someone who really doesn't know better but is trying to learn, getting totally turned off of firearms and not wanting to be a part of a community that has "a**h***s like that guy" in it.

I've been known to make a show of moving out of the way and not-exactly-asking: "You mind not pointing your gun at me, please?" It's written as a question, but not stated as one aloud. For me, climbing up someone's tail end when they're truly ignorant of what they've done just makes me look like . There is something to be said for the blunt, gruff, drill-sergeant approach, as it's definitely memorable, but those of you who served, how many of you would willingly go back to where you met your drill sergeant again, y'know? I want people who are coming out to shoot to enjoy it, and do so safely. If they don't come out, they don't learn anything. If they're not safe, they learn the wrong things, so both are equally important.



Blessings,
Bill

 

[NIFT]

Good luck with numbers 1. and 2. Kirk !!

 

[GIJEW]

Depending on the circumstances, a quiet 1:1 conversation--if the problem seems to just be ignorance--but calling a ceasefire should momentarily fix the problem...even if they're an arrogant doofus who knows too much to listen to anyone

 

[hog slayer]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oE2GuJKvgzs

Uh...i don't want pummeled by a gorilla.

 

[Frost49]

Took my son to the range for the 1st time yesterday. We have discussed all the rules over and over. Practiced handling and safety at home. Get to the range, private btw, and start unpacking guns and ammo. Eye protection, check, ears, check. We start loading magazines and he is ready to go. We go with my SW MP 40 shield first. We walk up to the 10yd mark and I hand him the gun cleared and slide back. The first thing he does is point it right at my face when I am handing him the 1st magazine.. SIGH.. Back to the truck to have a talk. After that 1 incident he was golden all afternoon. We shot up 3 100 count boxes of .45, 2 of .40 and a whole brick of .22LR out of my 10/22 ruger. For a first time shooter he did wonderful His groupings with the .40 and .45 were great at 10yds. All center mass with about a 8" spread. Only goes to show that no matter how many times you talk safety, we can all make mistakes.

 

[ATM]

Took my son to the range for the 1st time yesterday. We have discussed all the rules over and over. Practiced handling and safety at home. Get to the range, private btw, and start unpacking guns and ammo. Eye protection, check, ears, check. We start loading magazines and he is ready to go. We go with my SW MP 40 shield first. We walk up to the 10yd mark and I hand him the gun cleared and slide back. The first thing he does is point it right at my face when I am handing him the 1st magazine.. SIGH.. Back to the truck to have a talk. After that 1 incident he was golden all afternoon. We shot up 3 100 count boxes of .45, 2 of .40 and a whole brick of .22LR out of my 10/22 ruger. For a first time shooter he did wonderful His groupings with the .40 and .45 were great at 10yds. All center mass with about a 8" spread. Only goes to show that no matter how many times you talk safety, we can all make mistakes.

Did you teach him that the very first and most important step to safe gun handling is to ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction, or something different?

 

[Bill of Rights]

Took my son to the range for the 1st time yesterday. We have discussed all the rules over and over. Practiced handling and safety at home. Get to the range, private btw, and start unpacking guns and ammo. Eye protection, check, ears, check. We start loading magazines and he is ready to go. We go with my SW MP 40 shield first. We walk up to the 10yd mark and I hand him the gun cleared and slide back. The first thing he does is point it right at my face when I am handing him the 1st magazine.. SIGH.. Back to the truck to have a talk. After that 1 incident he was golden all afternoon. We shot up 3 100 count boxes of .45, 2 of .40 and a whole brick of .22LR out of my 10/22 ruger. For a first time shooter he did wonderful His groupings with the .40 and .45 were great at 10yds. All center mass with about a 8" spread. Only goes to show that no matter how many times you talk safety, we can all make mistakes.

Did you teach him that the very first and most important step to safe gun handling is to ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction, or something different?

My first question would not be what he was taught, but how old he is. It's not that there's some magical number that makes someone the right age, but I'm asking about his span of attention and attention to detail. No question that returning to the truck for a "talk" was the right move; the nature of that "talk" is debatable. (who am I kidding? ATM is in this thread... ANYTHING, including this parenthetical statement, is debatable! )

It sounds from what I've read in the first quoted post that he did well and had a good and patient teacher. Good for him and good for you.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Frost49]

ATM yes that is the foundation of everything I have taught him from day 1. They are always loaded and always point them in a safe direction. I think the moment caught up to him with his first trip out.

Bill of Rights he is 12 years old. I have waited this long because I was waiting until I felt he was mature enough to handle a trip to the range with adults. We have discussed safety since he was old enough to understand. He knows how to clean every gun I own and puts some of them back together faster than I do. He knew as soon as he did it and I pushed the muzzle away from my direction he had messed up. He apologized over and over. Like I said, after that he was calm and deliberate in all his actions for the rest of the time we were there. The excitement of his first trip might have been the distraction in the end. It's an ongoing learning process for him and me.