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  • HoosierLife

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    Jun 8, 2013
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    Greenwood
    So I work part time as church staff for a medium sized church. We run around 500 on Sunday mornings. One of areas that falls under my purview is security. We have 2 other gentleman that help out, one of which is moving to Florida this week and the other who is a Johnson Co Deputy. I pretty much leave everything in the Deputy's hands.

    Obviously, we are on the lookout for active shooter situations, but our primary roles are just to make sure the building is locked up once the service has started, clear all the rooms, make sure none of the "strangers" we pick up from the downtown missions have accidentally found their way to the children's wing etc.

    We've had very few issues over the years, but when you run buses and go out into the highways and hedges and bring folks in, you will run into strange situations from time to time.This Sunday happened to be one of those times.The deputy usually patrols the halls during Sunday morning services and happened to be watching the service from the TV monitor in the lobby. Once I had gotten done checking the building, I made my way into the service just as the preaching started.

    Preacher had a long introduction, giving the background to Joshua, Moses and the Israelites captivity in Egypt and their trek toward the promised land. He got to the first main point of the sermon which was God commanding Joshua to "Arise, go over this Jordan..." The first point hitting home our need to get off our back sides and put our hand to the plow. My word, not his lol. So while Preacher was hitting this point he says "ARISE, STAND UP!" At this point, a dark skinned young man sitting close to the front, stands up. He was either Arab or Hispanic, I could not tell from the back row.

    Now at this point, I'm watching him like a hawk. I'm hoping that he took the command to "Arise" a little too literally. That's happened before. He was standing up for a good 8-10 seconds and then he starts moving from his chair to the center aisle.At this point, I'm still hoping he just wants to head to the bathroom or maybe even the altar to pray. Not something that happens in the middle of the sermon at our type of church, but maybe this type of action is ok in the more charismatic type of church.

    Well then he walks to the stairs that lead to the platform where Preacher is going his thing. At this point, I'm in the aisle making my way toward the platform, hand on my pistol. I'm kicking myself because I decided to carry my LCP instead of my P938 or SR1911, so I took my hand off knowing there was no way I could hit him at that distance anyway. The young man walks up to the Preacher and is chest to chest. If harm was meant, there would have been nothing to stop it. Preacher starts looking out over the congregation asking for some help, sees me and asks if I would pray with him.

    The young man then walks to top of the steps and is just standing there for a few seconds, which is when I reached the bottom of the steps. I will be honest, I thought we were all about to get blown up. From the lobby, our deputy has seen him on the platform and has also rushed in. Unbeknownst to me, he is coming up the right side of the platform as I am coming up the left. The kid leaves the top of the steps and again comes chest to chest with Preacher. I reach him and gently turn him and myself, deputy and the young man exit stage left where the choir comes in and make our way to the gym.Now the young man ended up being Hispanic and was obviously having issues, but he was not a problem after that. I was able to speak and pray with him and did lead him to Christ, but this could have ended horribly.

    Now on any given Sunday, there are more men carrying than not. A few of our "preppers" were within feet of the young man when he started moving toward the platform. When I spoke to some of them later, they felt like that lacked the authority to run up on the platform in this scenario.After assuring them that they have my blessing to deflect any individual that does something similar in the future, we have all decided to have a meeting to discuss things further.

    There were so many fails I don't know if I've listed them all. I was unaware that this young man was crying heavily during the singing. One of the things we have asked people is to let us know if you see something untoward. I am going to establish a group chat through a phone app that all the "security minded" men can be apart of.While a lot of our emphasis has been to prevent unwanted guests from entering the building when we are not looking, there was a gapping whole in our defense. I know that this was handled poorly and our reaction time to the incident was even worse, so any thoughts or ideas would be very helpful.

    The other issue we are going to have is all the "security minded" men are ALPHA males to the extreme. Many of them are a little rough around the edges. While I know the least compared to the retired marines, tank commanders and deputies, I am still "technically" in charge just because I'm on staff and I know how to season my speech and actions with salt. I have left the deputy in charge, but once we get others in the loop, they are going to challenge his authority and his way of dealing with things/setting up SOPs etc. So I not only need tactical advice, but I also need some advice on how to run this group. We have too many chiefs and not enough Indians...
     

    myhightechsec

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    Jul 15, 2016
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    The Region
    Call Moody Bible College in Chicago and ask to speak with Rick Thompson. He is the security director at our rather large church and is a real pro at it. I am sure that Rick would be happy to discuss the issues with you.
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
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    Dec 7, 2011
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    Speedway area
    The 1st issue with this is establishing a chain of command and sticking to it.
    Everyone involved has to understand and observe that chain or they can not be involved.
    The worst thing would be loose cannons.
     

    Cpt Caveman

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    Feb 5, 2009
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    Brown County
    Its a difficult thing to do well. Especially with a volunteer force. I was living your story in my head at our church, wondering how we would have reacted. Pretty sure it would have gone something like you described. Only i assume one of the elders would have joined them quickly on the platform with the pastor. If the young man had had evil intentions the pastor would have been in trouble.
    Im not worried about loose cannons so much. Just the possible collateral damage they may cause. But not nearly enough to hope there are fewer folks carrying when the shtf.
     

    gregr

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    Jan 1, 2016
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    The 1st issue with this is establishing a chain of command and sticking to it.
    Everyone involved has to understand and observe that chain or they can not be involved.
    The worst thing would be loose cannons.

    This right here...as well as finding some way to ensure those in the congregation who are packing and aren`t part of the security detail either know what their roles are, or, know not to step in.
     

    Gluemanz28

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    29   0   0
    Mar 4, 2013
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    Elkhart County
    I would retract my statement to the guys carrying that they are free to intervene.

    Most churches have very little to no chance of getting a shot off in a safe direction.

    You need to to establish a plan and procedures long before putting together a team.

    Your team should consist of several layers.
    1) You Will need a medical and weather emergency group
    Who calls 911
    Who goes out to main entrance to usher in first responders
    Who is stationed at different locations to direct first responders
    Who is trained in first aid and certified CPR

    2) Your parking lot and or door greeters should be trained as well to notify of suspious people. They can let you know of something that might set off their spidey senses.

    3) You will need armed security team members.
    This should be done through an application process including a background check.
    The correct temperament is a must for this group.
    They have to pass a marksmanship test to be on the team.

    The church is liable for the actions of anyone you ask to carry and take action. Knowing they carry and asking them to is two very different issues in terms of liability.

    Our Insurance Company provided some good litature to help us out. We have a long way to go in terms of what I'd call a good team but we are a work in progress.
     

    Trigger Time

    Air guitar master
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    204   3   0
    Aug 26, 2011
    40,112
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    SOUTH of Zombie city
    If you have former military and law enforcement then they will understand the chain of command that you establish. I mean this in an inoffensive way and solely for the advice you're asking for, but by your words it doesn't sound like you even are sure about a chain of command at present. Either you are in charge or you make it clear that you are not and the deputy or whoever is. This is important.
    Below I will list some recommendations. I type as I speak so don't be offended or take phrasing or specific words offensive:

    break the churge building and grounds into color coded and numbered sections. This should be random. What I mean by this is that if your key area of focus is the stage, don't label it red 1. You don't want anyone outside of your team to be able to predict anything.

    Get radios or some form of instant communication. I would use cell phones as a backup. We (high risk private protection detail) used to leave our cell phones on a group call or two way call constantly in order to also blend in. People notice radios even ear buds. Some things you want discreet and some things you want in their face.

    dont be predictable with your search patterns or patrols. Patterns and being on a timed routine are the downfall of any security detail.

    I dont knkw how the stage is set up but I would recommend a ropeline of some kind. Block off access to the stage and other areas you don't want someone to just walk up on. This serves more than just one purpose but is a tool for you. If someone knowingly breaches this roped off are then they should be assumed a threat and more escelated measures enacted to stop them. Even children understand what a blocked area is.

    What plan do you have in place if an active shooter does come in? This should be thoroughly discussed with your team and also with the congregation so they can be directed and act in a manner than minimizes casualties if this happens.

    Assign each of your team a clearly defined sector to patril or watch over. This will make your job easier and also let you focus on the more sensitive areas.

    I wouldbt just assime someone is security minded or trustable just because they carry a gun or are cops or military or former ect. This process of choosing your team is very important and the foundation of your plan.

    There is so so much more but this was a lot of typing. I'd be happy to help in any way if I can.
     
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    Leo

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    Mar 3, 2011
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    In Texas, our sound board man was the animal control officer for his living. He was permitted to keep a 30/30 Winchester in a locker inside his elevated crows nest on the back wall. 100 ft was the longest shot. Even though I carried on the platform it was good to know an experienced man with a rifle was back up.

    We did hire a consulting firm to evaluate our security needs and had a written plan for events. It included definitions of responsibility and plans of action for each position. The kiddie building had it's own watchman with a wireless panic button to alert the team in the main building. We did have a couple court forbidden, non custodial relatives try to grab kids from the kiddie services.
     
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    BehindBlueI's

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    Oct 3, 2012
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    I question the assumption that because someone approaches the preacher the assumption is to put a hand on a gun and expect to be blown up.

    This is where most security guard training fails, and where the untrained and inexperienced falter. If you wish to be effective you must learn to read body language and to size up a situation quickly and accurately.

    I'd recommend you take a look at the book "Left of Bang" as a starting point. If possible, seek professional training in pre-attack indicators and in managing unknown contacts.
     

    rhino

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    Mar 18, 2008
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    Indiana
    There were so many fails I don't know if I've listed them all. I was unaware that this young man was crying heavily during the singing. One of the things we have asked people is to let us know if you see something untoward. I am going to establish a group chat through a phone app that all the "security minded" men can be apart of.While a lot of our emphasis has been to prevent unwanted guests from entering the building when we are not looking, there was a gapping whole in our defense. I know that this was handled poorly and our reaction time to the incident was even worse, so any thoughts or ideas would be very helpful.

    The other issue we are going to have is all the "security minded" men are ALPHA males to the extreme. Many of them are a little rough around the edges. While I know the least compared to the retired marines, tank commanders and deputies, I am still "technically" in charge just because I'm on staff and I know how to season my speech and actions with salt. I have left the deputy in charge, but once we get others in the loop, they are going to challenge his authority and his way of dealing with things/setting up SOPs etc. So I not only need tactical advice, but I also need some advice on how to run this group. We have too many chiefs and not enough Indians...


    Why are you limiting your choices to men?

    Most women are better at noticing when something is wrong long before most men.
     

    Benp

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    Mar 19, 2017
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    A lot of good advice has been given. I'm glad it ended well for you all, and I'm also glad that it gave you the opportunity to see where things can improve. In addition to what has already been mentioned I would say having a meeting with the men and let them know that if something like that were to happen then it's ok for them to step in an assist the person back to their seat in a helpful manner. Sometimes you may have a visitor that isn't used to your service format and they may just need a little guidance without being embarassed.
     

    The Bubba Effect

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    May 13, 2010
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    High Rockies
    I question the assumption that because someone approaches the preacher the assumption is to put a hand on a gun and expect to be blown up.

    This is where most security guard training fails, and where the untrained and inexperienced falter. If you wish to be effective you must learn to read body language and to size up a situation quickly and accurately.

    I'd recommend you take a look at the book "Left of Bang" as a starting point. If possible, seek professional training in pre-attack indicators and in managing unknown contacts.

    +1 for "Left of Bang".
     

    Nazgul

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    Dec 2, 2012
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    Near the big river.
    We have had credible threats at our very small town church. As a deacon, carry a gun regularly, as well as some others. I sit in the back, good view of the congregation and the front entrance.

    Lots of big farm boys here. Muscle if needed readily available.

    Don
     

    newtothis

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    Jul 28, 2011
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    I second The comment about Rick Thompson.


    Rick is good people. He's an ILEA grad. VERY security oriented.
     
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