Took Joe Biden's Advice but He Didn't Say Anything About Ammunition Load

[JAL]

OK, so I finally took Joe Biden's advice: "If you want to git 'er done, git a scattergun".

[video=youtube;CrzyRXSxuAg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrzyRXSxuAg[/video]

Of course, there's a more entertaining version of this as well:

[video=youtube;uv66RiFC4T0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv66RiFC4T0[/video]

A Remington 18" 12 ga. 870 Express Tactical with XS ghost ring sights will soon be joining the arsenal. Remington is having a $60 rebate on this model that couldn't be ignored. Also got an Urbino stock with pistol grip, cheek pad and Limbsaver that shortens the pull to 12.5 inches making maneuvering it inside a home a little easier. I didn't want an Enforcer or Persuader pistol grip only without something for my shoulder. Got a bayonet lug for it so I can put the M7 or M9 on it (the OKC-3S handle is too long). Tends to discourage take-away attempts, and if the 8 rounds are expended all is not yet lost with a pike. Also added a scabbard and sling.

The problem though is Joe didn't say anything about ammunition. For all the other firearms I've used, handled and fired, I've never had, used or fired a shotgun. What ammo should I be using inside an average size 3BR home with LR, DR and Den? #4 buckshot? 7-1/2 bird shot? #000 buckshot?

Forgive me if this has been asked before. I did use the search feature in the Long Gun and this forum and got hundreds of threads but while some were interesting reads, there was nothing I could see that talked about the best ammunition for home defense.

Thanks,
John

 

[Bigtanker]

Mas Ayoob says #4 buck is best fit for inside the home.

 

[IndyDave1776]

You might also want to consider your area and the weather. If the potential home invader is likely to be wearing a t-shirt, you will not have any penetration problems with lighter shot like #4. If he is wearing a coat that could keep a Russkie in Siberia comfortable, you may want something larger.

 

[oldpink]

Mas Ayoob says #4 buck is best fit for inside the home.

Yep
It's more than enough, but it limits overpenetration.

 

[Jackson]

I would vote for 5.56mm ammo fired from your favorite carbine.

In a shotgun though, I guess I'd be happy with anything #4 buck or bigger. I just use plain ol' 00 buck. The more important part of the equation is how well the shot patterns in your specific shotgun, with your specific barrel. You will want to take a few different loads to the range for consideration. You will want to shoot them at varying distances from 5 to say... 25 yards and see what that pattern looks like. How wide does it spread? Is there one load that consistently has random fliers? (Don't use that one.) If you plan to use the gun for defensive purposes you'll want to be intimately familiar with the size of that pattern at those various distances. This is so you can make real-time decisions about how much shot you'll be putting where when you have to pull the trigger with your kid's bedroom potentially in the background. (Sure, best practice would be to take a different angle... So many variables. So little time to make decisions.)

There is a school of thought that says the tightest pattern you can get is what you want. There are a few loads on the market designed specifically for this and they work as designed. Federal Flight Control and Hornady (can't remember the trade name) are the most prominent examples. In some shotguns, the holes left by these loads are only a tad larger than a slug hole at closer distances. I kind of prefer something that patterns a little wider. After all, that's kind of the point of the shotgun. I'd like a fist-sized or slightly larger group at inside-the-house distances. I want to spread that trauma out a little bit.

If you don't want to have to think about all this pattern stuff and just love the idea of an ounce of lead flying through your target (and let's be honest, who doesn't?), there's always the rifled slug option. This too should be tested in your barrel. Some barrels I've seen are no bueno for shooting slugs at any real distance.

 

[Anima mundi]

DocGKR recommends the stellar Federal LE132-1B #1 buckshot for keeping around the house and I'm inclined to agree with him. The right amount of pellets with the right amount of spread hitting the right depth to destroy all the squishy things in the people who try to hurt us.

 

[JAL]

Thanks for the responses. Looks as if the likely suspects will be #1 or #4 buckshot, leaning toward #4. I don't anticipate ever having to use it outdoors for self defense. I live near a cemetery but have never seen any signs of zombie activity (very quiet, no loud parties, in spite of the high density population). I've got pistols and a revolver for SD outside the home. The most credible scenario is inside the home and absolute distance limit is about 15 yards, with a credible scenario putting it at 10 yards or less. Hadn't considered the need to look at pattern but I'm finding from here and other sites that it's different for every shotgun, shot size and probably specific cartridge brand and type. Similar to at least testing the planned carry rounds in a pistol or revolver. I'll have to see what the indoor range I use allows regarding shotgun cartridges. Some limitations are obvious from backstop, walls and ceiling being able to stop the rounds. There are some others I suspect are driven by the heavy concussion generated in a confined space by larger caliber, heavier load long gun ammunition.

Regarding 5.56:
The AR-15 platform is currently the most popular rifle in the U.S. (and has been for some years), but not a big fan of it, having carried a M16A1 around for about five years before they handed me a M1911A1. Its bolt with impingement gas system action and buffer with spring design isn't my cup of tea. I would consider a .30 M1 carbine, or a Ruger Mini-thirty. The Ruger Mini-14 .300 blackout is an alternative to the Mini-thirty, but would want to be certain it's a cartridge that would be around long term. At first blush, the .30 M1 carbine and its cartridge seems better for indoor use compared to the 7.62x39 or .300 blackout as it's similar to a .357 magnum. Would want to know a lot more about the latter two ballistics and wall penetration. A round finding its way into a neighbor's home because it didn't stop in mine would be a Bad Thing. It's why I wouldn't use a .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO or a .30-06 for HD except as an absolute last resort. I've seen those rounds go clean through cinder block and brick walls with plenty of lethality remaining. The M1 carbine and Ruger "Mini" are derived from the M1 Garand and M14, and I much prefer their actions, rotating bolts and gas pistons.

Thanks,
John

 

[indiucky]

Yep
It's more than enough, but it limits overpenetration.

Yep.....I am a number 4 man myself....

 

[rhino]

Thanks for the responses. Looks as if the likely suspects will be #1 or #4 buckshot, leaning toward #4. I don't anticipate ever having to use it outdoors for self defense. I live near a cemetery but have never seen any signs of zombie activity (very quiet, no loud parties, in spite of the high density population). I've got pistols and a revolver for SD outside the home. The most credible scenario is inside the home and absolute distance limit is about 15 yards, with a credible scenario putting it at 10 yards or less. Hadn't considered the need to look at pattern but I'm finding from here and other sites that it's different for every shotgun, shot size and probably specific cartridge brand and type. Similar to at least testing the planned carry rounds in a pistol or revolver. I'll have to see what the indoor range I use allows regarding shotgun cartridges. Some limitations are obvious from backstop, walls and ceiling being able to stop the rounds. There are some others I suspect are driven by the heavy concussion generated in a confined space by larger caliber, heavier load long gun ammunition.

Regarding 5.56:
The AR-15 platform is currently the most popular rifle in the U.S. (and has been for some years), but not a big fan of it, having carried a M16A1 around for about five years before they handed me a M1911A1. Its bolt with impingement gas system action and buffer with spring design isn't my cup of tea. I would consider a .30 M1 carbine, or a Ruger Mini-thirty. The Ruger Mini-14 .300 blackout is an alternative to the Mini-thirty, but would want to be certain it's a cartridge that would be around long term. At first blush, the .30 M1 carbine and its cartridge seems better for indoor use compared to the 7.62x39 or .300 blackout as it's similar to a .357 magnum. Would want to know a lot more about the latter two ballistics and wall penetration. A round finding its way into a neighbor's home because it didn't stop in mine would be a Bad Thing. It's why I wouldn't use a .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO or a .30-06 for HD except as an absolute last resort. I've seen those rounds go clean through cinder block and brick walls with plenty of lethality remaining. The M1 carbine and Ruger "Mini" are derived from the M1 Garand and M14, and I much prefer their actions, rotating bolts and gas pistons.

Thanks,
John

If penetrating through walls is one of your primary concerns, you should understand that 5.56x45mm/.223 penetrates less through common building materials than any of the other alternatives you mentioned, not to mention 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP out of pistils,

 

[IndyTom]

If penetrating through walls is one of your primary concerns, you should understand that 5.56x45mm/.223 penetrates less through common building materials than any of the other alternatives you mentioned, not to mention 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP out of pistils,

You *have* to watch out for those girly flowers. They're apparently packing some heat.

 

[rhino]

You *have* to watch out for those girly flowers. They're apparently packing some heat.

D'OH! At least I retain plausible deniability that it was a typo since "i" and "o" are next to each other!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'd go 00 or #1, preferably plated, and preferably in a"Flitecontrol" wad. They are very effective loads.

Birdshot is for birds. It will not penetrate enough to get to major organs or blood vessels. I've seen a lot of very close range bird shot strikes and they look like crazy connect-the-dot patterns just under the skin. I've seen them fall out of the patient as they moved.

I'd probably skip the bayonet as well. Just something to get hung up or stuck.

 

[rhino]

I'd go 00 or #1, preferably plated, and preferably in a"Flitecontrol" wad. They are very effective loads.

Birdshot is for birds. It will not penetrate enough to get to major organs or blood vessels. I've seen a lot of very close range bird shot strikes and they look like crazy connect-the-dot patterns just under the skin. I've seen them fall out of the patient as they moved.

I'd probably skip the bayonet as well. Just something to get hung up or stuck.

I've only found #3 buck for my 20ga. I'd like to try some of Federal's #4 buck with the flite control, but I've not taken the trouble to seek it online yet.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I've only found #3 buck for my 20ga. I'd like to try some of Federal's #4 buck with the flite control, but I've not taken the trouble to seek it online yet.

As long as you stay away from blades you should be alright!

 

[VERT]

http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad174/vert52/Mobile Uploads/IMG_0153_zpsgbceeh4j.jpg

I've only found #3 buck for my 20ga. I'd like to try some of Federal's #4 buck with the flite control, but I've not taken the trouble to seek it online yet.

I got hold of a box of #4 Federal in 20 gauge. Flight control it is not. It does pattern pretty well though. This is at 7 yards.

At 10-12 yards the pattern opens rapidly. Too much actually. (Check out the slug shot to the melon and 20 gauge to the junk )

This is 12 gauge 8 pellet 00 flight control. The head may have been a couple slugs. Shot this yesterday and can't remember the details.

 

[Jackson]

Vert's post is a good illustration of what you need to know about the pattern of your specific load in your specific gun. He likes the pattern at 7 but puts pellets off target at 10. Now he has to make decisions about that in real time when using the shotgun. That problem combined with the penetration info presented by the rhino are two of the several reasons I favor a carbine. Another is a set of controls and operating procedures that more closely resembles a pistol, with which I have much more trigger time.

All the discussion about bolt design, gas systems, etc are totally secondary to my being able to consistently and reliably perform with it and simplify decision making.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Vert's post is a good illustration of what you need to know about the pattern of your specific load in your specific gun. He likes the pattern at 7 but puts pellets off target at 10. Now he has to make decisions about that in real time when using the shotgun. That problem combined with the penetration info presented by the rhino are two of the several reasons I favor a carbine. Another is a set of controls and operating procedures that more closely resembles a pistol, with which I have much more trigger time.

All the discussion about bolt design, gas systems, etc are totally secondary to my being able to consistently and reliably perform with it and simplify decision making.

I've seen the results of both and would list them both as "plenty effective". Without getting too far into the weeds, I still prefer a shotgun for inside work but am fine with either.

 

[Jackson]

I've seen the results of both and would list them both as "plenty effective". Without getting too far into the weeds, I still prefer a shotgun for inside work but am fine with either.

Yes sir. From what I understand, either is perfectly acceptable from a terminal ballistics standpoint. I'm thinking mostly in terms of ease of use.

 

[mgdiaz1993]

I'm a believer in Federal flight control after patterning it during a shotgun course. That being said, I would load up a home defense shotgun with varying loads. My set up would be 1st shot Birdshot, 2-5 00 buck, and last but not least slugs. Thought process behind this is that deterring a threat doesn't necessarily rely on incapacitation, sometimes the pain penalty can be enough to end a threat by convincing them that this house isn't worth it.

1st notice is the shotgun racking, audio deterrent
2nd notice, is being peppered with birds hot to the upper face and torso, really enough pain penalty to deter anyone not high on meth
2-5 are 00 buck, DEFINITELY enough to incapacitate and permanently disable a threat
The rest are high quality slugs, if you're 6 shots deep and the previous action hasn't stopped the threat, you may need more concentrated oompf

This all being said, my go to home defense guns are a Glock 17 with TLR-1 and 18 rounds of Federal HST 124gr+p, and an AK47. Paramount in my opinion is some sort of good quality light. Rule number 4 is to know your target. Nobody wants to be the person who accidentally shot a friend or kid who forgot a key or stopped by for a surprise visit.

The preceding ammo choice is just a matter of opinion keeping in mind the average home entry. Your mileage and opinion may vary.

 

[Jackson]

I'm a believer in Federal flight control after patterning it during a shotgun course. That being said, I would load up a home defense shotgun with varying loads. My set up would be 1st shot Birdshot, 2-5 00 buck, and last but not least slugs. Thought process behind this is that deterring a threat doesn't necessarily rely on incapacitation, sometimes the pain penalty can be enough to end a threat by convincing them that this house isn't worth it.

1st notice is the shotgun racking, audio deterrent
2nd notice, is being peppered with birds hot to the upper face and torso, really enough pain penalty to deter anyone not high on meth
2-5 are 00 buck, DEFINITELY enough to incapacitate and permanently disable a threat
The rest are high quality slugs, if you're 6 shots deep and the previous action hasn't stopped the threat, you may need more concentrated oompf

This all being said, my go to home defense guns are a Glock 17 with TLR-1 and 18 rounds of Federal HST 124gr+p, and an AK47. Paramount in my opinion is some sort of good quality light. Rule number 4 is to know your target. Nobody wants to be the person who accidentally shot a friend or kid who forgot a key or stopped by for a surprise visit.

The preceding ammo choice is just a matter of opinion keeping in mind the average home entry. Your mileage and opinion may vary.

Not knocking this poster, but I very much disagree with the practice of varying loads in the magazine. First, trying to use bird shot as a less-than-lethal load is probably not a good idea legally or tactically. If you're using a shotgun it's going to be considered lethal force. You probably shouldn't be using it unless lethal force is warranted. If it's warranted, you should just be using the most effective load you can.

The second reason is you're not likely to have the presence of mind to know what's coming out the muzzle. You will lose track. You'll think it's bird shot when it's buck shot, or buck shot when it's a slug, or a slug when it's shot, or whatever.