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  • NIFT

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    This proves, once again, that the outdated and totally unnecessary "All guns are always loaded" rule is just, as one particular INGO Jedi Master puts it, "garbled nonsense." And you can take that to the bank, well, at least to the Automated Teller Machine.
     

    cbhausen

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    From the linked article:

    "[FONT=&amp]Golovenchik was exercising how to respond to a terrorist attack with two of his soldiers, it transpired in the inquiry. He then wanted to repeat the exercise and told the soldiers he would take part in it, but did not instruct them to unload their weapons as safety regulations require.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]Golovenchik took off his [/FONT]protective gear[FONT=&amp], went to the post and played the part of a Palestinian undergoing a security check by the soldiers. He turned the table at the post over them and simulated a stabbing attack. Apparently one of the soldiers cocked his [/FONT]gun[FONT=&amp] and shot his commander."

    How does "All guns are always loaded" prevent this???

    Sounds to me more like the guns were being treated "as if they [weren't] loaded"!

    Safe direction FIRST and ALWAYS is the solution, not some silly metaphor. I don't have to be an "INGO Jedi Master" to understand that. :starwars:



    [/FONT]
     
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    cbhausen

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    ATM

    will argue for sammiches.
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    This proves, once again, that the outdated and totally unnecessary "All guns are always loaded" rule is just, as one particular INGO Jedi Master puts it, "garbled nonsense." And you can take that to the bank, well, at least to the Automated Teller Machine.

    Nonsense, yes. You are unable to correct me for having abandoned it and unable to defend your own choice to keep regurgitating it to the next generation of students.

    The comparative insignificance of loaded/unloaded status to ALWAYS keeping guns pointed in a safe direction is an unassailable point of order. Don't wear yourself out trying to deny it.
     
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    NIFT

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    You flatter yourself, as usual, and I wouldn't dream of correcting you--not possible, as you are the only true master, a legend in your own mind; the King of INGO.
    Hate to disappoint you, oh King, but I am busy with advanced classes the next two days, the lead instructor being an experienced EST member, veteran of two OIS events, the first one fatal. Toodles.
    Enjoy your weekend at the keyboard.
     

    ATM

    will argue for sammiches.
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    You flatter yourself, as usual, and I wouldn't dream of correcting you--not possible, as you are the only true master, a legend in your own mind; the King of INGO.
    Hate to disappoint you, oh King, but I am busy with advanced classes the next two days, the lead instructor being an experienced EST member, veteran of two OIS events, the first one fatal. Toodles.
    Enjoy your weekend at the keyboard.

    There was no flattery, no disappointment, and I don't even detect a hint of denial in your response this time.

    Well done, and have a great class this weekend!

    ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
     

    Brad69

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    So there are some dudes that actually test the security at DOE faculties.
    They see how far they can get without getting stopped!
    I still can't understand half of them have not got snuffed.

    This story reminds me of it for some unknown reason.
     

    cbhausen

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    You flatter yourself, as usual, and I wouldn't dream of correcting you--not possible, as you are the only true master, a legend in your own mind; the King of INGO.
    Hate to disappoint you, oh King, but I am busy with advanced classes the next two days, the lead instructor being an experienced EST member, veteran of two OIS events, the first one fatal. Toodles.
    Enjoy your weekend at the keyboard.

    Hang on just a second here... You come out of the blue and insult another INGO member, not directly by name, but we all know who you were talking about. You are an NRA certified firearms instructor clinging to Cooper's four when NRA now endorses three basic rules for safe gun handling. Now you insinuate ATM is some kind of keyboard commando. This alone tells anyone who knows him how little you actually know about him... You're talking way out your @$$ here.

    Why won't you answer MY questions? I asked directly how pretending ones gun is loaded when one knows it isn't would've prevented this or any other negligent shooting incident. I'm still waiting for that answer. And for the first person to come forward and convince me that pretending one's gun is loaded when it isn't trumps keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction at all times whether or not it's loaded at all. Why we continue to cling to fallacies is completely beyond me.

    When we quit asking people to pretend their guns are loaded all the time and replace the primary reason for one to make excuses that they didn't know it was loaded or give them the idea that it's OK to treat guns differently when they are unloaded (or thought to be) maybe we can instead instill safe direction all the time as paramount and prevent some of these senseless tragedies.
     
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    oldpink

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    Meh
    I will stick to Cooper's rules, and all whom I care for will as well, all because of how instinctively and easily it instills the essential mindset.
    That doesn't mean that it's still cool to openly troll that "other guy" just because of his eccentric and dogged advocacy for his shorter version of the rules.
     

    Shay

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    Sure, why not. This has been typed to death but I'll jump in.

    All guns are not always loaded. That's illogical and incorrect. People who defend teaching "All guns are always loaded" are passing along a poor representation of one of the firearm safety rules. Just because someone wrote it on a stone tablet once does not mean there isn't a better way to teach it.

    All guns are always loaded. Ok then how do I field strip a Glock? How do I ship a firearm? How do I "unload and show clear" at any number of shooting sports?

    Some guns are loaded. Some guns are unloaded. "Treat all guns as if they are loaded" puts the responsibility on the handler of the gun and is not dependent on the condition of the gun.

    The real problem stems from people doing things with "unloaded" guns that they wouldn't do with a loaded one.
     

    ATM

    will argue for sammiches.
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    I can understand why you would teach this, but what do you define as a safe direction?

    A direction you'd be most willing to own the consequences of a round being discharged, intentionally or not, while you're handling a gun.

    Very circumstantial, as you well know and teach.
     

    Shay

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    A direction you'd be most willing to own the consequences of a round being discharged, intentionally or not, while you're handling a gun.

    Very circumstantial, as you well know and teach.

    Very good. As long as your definition doesn't include the words "berm", "down range", or "backstop". Too much "gun safety" requires a shooting range to be present. What do people do when they aren't on a range? Real world gun handling requires decision making in context which is why it's a problem when we tell people to keep their guns "pointed down range".


    Also, on a slightly semantic point, I now use the word "safer" rather than "safe" to teach gun handling.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    Very good. As long as your definition doesn't include the words "berm", "down range", or "backstop". Too much "gun safety" requires a shooting range to be present. What do people do when they aren't on a range? Real world gun handling requires decision making in context which is why it's a problem when we tell people to keep their guns "pointed down range".


    Also, on a slightly semantic point, I now use the word "safer" rather than "safe" to teach gun handling.

    Good point. Now I know how I am going to make my millions--invent a shooting range that follows people around! :):

    Seriously, this, like most safety standards, shooting or otherwise, only works in controlled conditions which don't realistically happen and it is unfortunate that this isn't sufficiently self-explanatory to most that you would not need to comment on it.
     

    Brad69

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    Jul 16, 2016
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    I Have encountered many near misses in 24 years.
    Many moons ago when I was a Platoon Sergeant.
    We were doing a Night Deliberate Defense live fire which was a dry,blank,live run.
    The dry and blank runs included OPFOR attacking. Dry run was fine during the blank run one of the SAW gunners grabbed what was supposed to be a 200 round magazine of 5.56 blank guess what it was "live".
    The Gunner alerted his Team Leader he called a "ceasefire". I was like a ceasefire during a blank run?
    Yes the blank and live were segregated by different ASP points. After all the finger pointing and investigation the best idea was it was blanks drawn from the main ASP were in an opened lot that had gotten mixed with one live magazine.
    Gunner did his job he IDed the live ammo alerted his Team Leader which call the ceasefire.
    BTW that would have been a career ending event for several Soldiers including me.
    The worst case it could have killed someone but being a Soldier is not a safe job.

    I have many many more the missing Hand Grenade, the M202 " flash" incident, the exploding deer.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    I Have encountered many near misses in 24 years.
    Many moons ago when I was a Platoon Sergeant.
    We were doing a Night Deliberate Defense live fire which was a dry,blank,live run.
    The dry and blank runs included OPFOR attacking. Dry run was fine during the blank run one of the SAW gunners grabbed what was supposed to be a 200 round magazine of 5.56 blank guess what it was "live".
    The Gunner alerted his Team Leader he called a "ceasefire". I was like a ceasefire during a blank run?
    Yes the blank and live were segregated by different ASP points. After all the finger pointing and investigation the best idea was it was blanks drawn from the main ASP were in an opened lot that had gotten mixed with one live magazine.
    Gunner did his job he IDed the live ammo alerted his Team Leader which call the ceasefire.
    BTW that would have been a career ending event for several Soldiers including me.
    The worst case it could have killed someone but being a Soldier is not a safe job.

    I have many many more the missing Hand Grenade, the M202 " flash" incident, the exploding deer.

    This post is very rich with thoughts to consider...

    First, I am thankful for the outcome and very happy you are still here!

    Second, safety requires work and careful consideration of what one is doing without room for depending on happenstance or 'good luck' or 'it has never happened, therefore it won't' to carry one through safely.

    Third, a conscientious person can salvage a situation that has already gone sideways through diligence in what he is doing.

    Fourth, being a soldier is indeed a dangerous job, even without a war. Unfortunately, too many people see it as a way to play 'capture the flag' as a way of paying for college.
     

    BearFodder

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    Apr 25, 2014
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    Sure, why not. This has been typed to death but I'll jump in.

    All guns are not always loaded. That's illogical and incorrect. People who defend teaching "All guns are always loaded" are passing along a poor representation of one of the firearm safety rules. Just because someone wrote it on a stone tablet once does not mean there isn't a better way to teach it.

    All guns are always loaded. Ok then how do I field strip a Glock? How do I ship a firearm? How do I "unload and show clear" at any number of shooting sports?

    Some guns are loaded. Some guns are unloaded. "Treat all guns as if they are loaded" puts the responsibility on the handler of the gun and is not dependent on the condition of the gun.

    The real problem stems from people doing things with "unloaded" guns that they wouldn't do with a loaded one.

    This is how Cooper taught it. I watched one of his videos and his point was that you consider the gun loaded until you personally checked the gun. Then you could consider the gun unloaded (this does NOT mean you can now do stupid things with the gun) he went on to say if he laid the gun down and picked it back up he would recheck if the gun was loaded.
     

    Hoosierkav

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    Dec 1, 2012
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    Keeping it in a safe direction seems to be ripe for training to fail. How do you do drills such as the OP without point the gun at the bad guy? Point almost at him? If you do that enough times, might it be natural to not see the aggressor in your sights, and still you'll fire.

    We see this sort of thing often in our EMT and Paramedic programs--unintended consequences of not being able to completely practice like you play.
     
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