Massad Ayoob's MAG-40

[BehindBlueI's]

I attended MAG-40 up at Sand Burr this past week. I highly recommend it, ESPECIALLY if you have no background in the legal process of how a self-defense shooting is investigated, how it is prosecuted if it goes to court, and how civil trials go. I'm quite familiar with all of those things and still learned some things that I consider improvements on my prior thoughts. I've always been a fan of Mas and understood him to be an expert. I walked away from the class thinking even more highly of him and his level of expertise in this arena. Some of his suggestions as far as actions, phrasing, and explaining are so elegant it's like watching a master paint a portrait.

Once you take the class you qualify on a shooting course and written test. Once you graduate, if you are in a shooting (and Mas believes it to be justified) he will assist you as an expert and/or material witness should you require it at no additional cost. That's a pretty strong argument to take the class right there, IMO.

He discusses what to do from pre to post shooting to set yourself up for legal victory in both the criminal and civil side. I had to laugh about his recommendations of what to say to police investigators because, other than wording differences, they were EXACTLY what I came up with independently. Nobody needs me to vouch for Mas, but I thought it added validity to both of our conclusions given our experience in the area from different angles (Investigator vs Expert Witness) and arriving at the same conclusions. The difference in wording stemmed from state specific differences (assist in prosecution vs sign the complaint sort of things).

The shooting portion was well worth it as well. I'll go into that a bit later. I did end up changing my support hand hold a bit based on his "stress fire" system and tightened up my shooting a bit as a result. I ended up as "Top Shot" in the class with a 593/600. Second place was 591/600. There were several competent shooters in the class. Mas shot a 594 in the demonstration, although I suspect he intentionally threw 2 shots low to give us a chance to tie or beat him.

 

[cosermann]

My brother in law took Mag 40 last year and shared his class notes/outline with me. Good stuff.

One thing I took away from the notes (and reading Mas' Deadly Force book this year) - I've been more diligent documenting my training since then (retroactively, and going forward) in case I ever need to prove what I knew at the time of an incident.

I'd jump at the chance to take the class if my schedule and budget ever aligned.

 

[shootinghoosier]

I've taken MAG20 & MAG40...if you carry and haven't had this type of training, you owe it to yourself to sign up the next time he is at Sand Burr. There is so much valuable information that he spews out over 4 full days that I took over 40 pages of notes and still didn't think I captured it all.

 

[STEEL CORE]

Well that's quite an endorsement coming from you Blue.
Congratulations on being top shooter in your class, its only happened to me once long ago at the Academy.
I will try and get into an upcoming class.
Thanks for the report.

 

[Skullglide]

I met Mas, by chance at Sand Burr a long time ago. I had read his articles and was dumbfounded to see him.

 

[BJones]

I have taken the mag40 class at Sand Burr and completely agree with Blue. Everyone who carries needs this kind of training

 

[cedartop]

I admit to being a Massad Ayoob fanboy. He was my favorite author in all of the gun rags during my formative years. I don't see eye to eye with him on every little detail anymore, but definitely think anyone could benefit from training with him.

 

[rhino]

I met Mas, by chance at Sand Burr a long time ago. I had read his articles and was dumbfounded to see him.

That's where I saw him too, but I was not surprised since I already knew he's there frequently.

I might take the class with just the legal stuff and not the shooting part some day.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

That's where I saw him too, but I was not surprised since I already knew he's there frequently.

I might take the class with just the legal stuff and not the shooting part some day.

Just FYI, the "no expert witness fees" offer is only if you've taken both. I don't know if that influences your decision or not. I did pick up a few things from the shooting portion that I considered worthwhile, including just an appreciation of the application of techniques I would have otherwise written off.

 

[rhino]

Just FYI, the "no expert witness fees" offer is only if you've taken both. I don't know if that influences your decision or not. I did pick up a few things from the shooting portion that I considered worthwhile, including just an appreciation of the application of techniques I would have otherwise written off.

To me it's a going to be a matter of time and $$$ for the actual class. I wasn't considering the expert witness thing, but in the past that offer was also included for the class with only the legal lectures. It must have changed!

As for the testifying for no fees, you still have to pay his travel expenses, correct?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

To me it's a going to be a matter of time and $$$ for the actual class. I wasn't considering the expert witness thing, but in the past that offer was also included for the class with only the legal lectures. It must have changed!

As for the testifying for no fees, you still have to pay his travel expenses, correct?

I won't speak for him, but my understanding is you are expected to pay his travel and hotel expense. I got the impression that, depending, he would work with you. Again, that's just what I got out of it.

The days are long. Expect 11-12 hour days. Combined with my 4 hour round trip drive, it was a very long day.

The demographics were interesting. I noticed they distinctly skewed older (I was one of the younger ones in the class). 3 medical doctors and 2 pilots were in attendance.

 

[rhino]

I won't speak for him, but my understanding is you are expected to pay his travel and hotel expense. I got the impression that, depending, he would work with you. Again, that's just what I got out of it.

The days are long. Expect 11-12 hour days. Combined with my 4 hour round trip drive, it was a very long day.

The demographics were interesting. I noticed they distinctly skewed older (I was one of the younger ones in the class). 3 medical doctors and 2 pilots were in attendance.

I think the demographics reflect the cost relative to the market as well as the fact Mas is part of the old guard of trainers. Younger people will gravitate toward the tactical beards and tattoos. Older guys assess their needs differently and they typically have more disposable income. Think of training with Massad Ayoob like owning a new Corvette.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I think the demographics reflect the cost relative to the market as well as the fact Mas is part of the old guard of trainers. Younger people will gravitate toward the tactical beards and tattoos. Older guys assess their needs differently and they typically have more disposable income. Think of training with Massad Ayoob like owning a new Corvette.

Pretty much the same conclusion I came to. Also, it's not physically intensive. There's no long range days as you're in a classroom part of each day as well, there's no combatives, etc. I don't see a lot of older folks taking ECQC, for example, due to the physical requirements.

 

[wcd]

I attended MAG-40 up at Sand Burr this past week. I highly recommend it, ESPECIALLY if you have no background in the legal process of how a self-defense shooting is investigated, how it is prosecuted if it goes to court, and how civil trials go. I'm quite familiar with all of those things and still learned some things that I consider improvements on my prior thoughts. I've always been a fan of Mas and understood him to be an expert. I walked away from the class thinking even more highly of him and his level of expertise in this arena. Some of his suggestions as far as actions, phrasing, and explaining are so elegant it's like watching a master paint a portrait.

Once you take the class you qualify on a shooting course and written test. Once you graduate, if you are in a shooting (and Mas believes it to be justified) he will assist you as an expert and/or material witness should you require it at no additional cost. That's a pretty strong argument to take the class right there, IMO.

He discusses what to do from pre to post shooting to set yourself up for legal victory in both the criminal and civil side. I had to laugh about his recommendations of what to say to police investigators because, other than wording differences, they were EXACTLY what I came up with independently. Nobody needs me to vouch for Mas, but I thought it added validity to both of our conclusions given our experience in the area from different angles (Investigator vs Expert Witness) and arriving at the same conclusions. The difference in wording stemmed from state specific differences (assist in prosecution vs sign the complaint sort of things).

The shooting portion was well worth it as well. I'll go into that a bit later. I did end up changing my support hand hold a bit based on his "stress fire" system and tightened up my shooting a bit as a result. I ended up as "Top Shot" in the class with a 593/600. Second place was 591/600. There were several competent shooters in the class. Mas shot a 594 in the demonstration, although I suspect he intentionally threw 2 shots low to give us a chance to tie or beat him.

Just wondering about class size and training environment? I would like to attend but I was curious about class size and line of sight for the speakers.

THanks

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Just wondering about class size and training environment? I would like to attend but I was curious about class size and line of sight for the speakers.

THanks

18 in this particular iteration. Never less than 3 assisting instructors, as many as 5, while on the range. Classroom portion was done indoors.

 

[wcd]

18 in this particular iteration. Never less than 3 assisting instructors, as many as 5, while on the range. Classroom portion was done indoors.

So small venue, guessing one would be able to see what was being said?

Thank you

 

[BehindBlueI's]

So small venue, guessing one would be able to see what was being said?

Thank you

Yeah, easily. Much of the lecture is via video of Massad, then he takes questions. The video ensures everyone gets the same base level of information, and can also be played for a jury to prove you knew whatever was on the video. You write down the video you watch in your notes, along with production date.

 

[rhino]

Yeah, easily. Much of the lecture is via video of Massad, then he takes questions. The video ensures everyone gets the same base level of information, and can also be played for a jury to prove you knew whatever was on the video. You write down the video you watch in your notes, along with production date.

That actually makes a lot of sense and relieves him of repeating the same lecture over and over.

 

[WebHobbit]

I SEEN Ayoob walking through the crowds at the 2016 NRA convention....I was star struck like a teenage girl or something! Me and my buddy (ElmoH) didn't even have time to say a word. Just stood there with our mouths open:

"THAT was Ayoob!"

Love that guys writing...I've read a LOT of his stuff!