9mm/40sw-45acp real reasons

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  • ashby koss

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    Ok no caliber flame war here.... But I've heard that the 40sw was made to have better kinetic energy than the 9mm but better penetration than 45acp.

    BUT, I've also seen that 45acp has same or better penetration than 40sw, and that 45acp (FMJ) had too much penetration for police..., so is 40sw around because of capacity concerns alone?

    What is the real placement for this seemingly "bastard" round. It seems like it should be a best of both worlds, but it maybe the worst of both worlds. Other than capacity it seems that the 45ACP was already the answer for Police & FBI, in regards to the Miami Dade Incident, before the 40sw was even thunk of.

    In short; What is the reason for the 40SW and what role does it play for us civilians and edc?
     
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    riverman67

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    For me and me alone
    I shoot a lot of competitions so I reload.
    I prefer to stick with small pistol primers so I don't have to swap out the priming system on my press.
    40 scores major
    9 scores minor
    My 1911's and limited guns are in 40 sw
    I have avoided 45 simply because of the reloading issue
    Every little bit of efficiency helps
     

    NyleRN

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    In short; What is the reason for the 40SW and what role does it play for us civilians and edc?
    The 40 came from the 10mm that police couldn't qualify with. All service handgun calibers suck at killing people. 40 is no better or worse for the EDC role. Shot placement is key to stopping an attack.
     

    gregkl

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    I am at 9mm for the some of the same reasons as riverman. I had a .45 but didn't want to mess with different primers and a different load/die set up. I load on a single stage and only have so much time.

    Plus I like to keep things simple. If I would have started out with .40, I would be just like riverman and keep things consistent. except I don't compete.

    I had already made a commitment to the 9 by the time I learned about the .40. Seems like a nice enough round.:)
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Ok no caliber flame war here.... But I've heard that the 40sw was made to have better kinetic energy than the 9mm but better penetration than 45acp.

    BUT, I've also seen that 45acp has same or better penetration than 40sw, and that 45acp had too much penetration for police..., so is 40sw around because of capacity concerns alone?

    Who told you .45 has too much penetration for police? ISP issues the Sig P227. You'll typically get LESS penetration from an expanding .45 unless you're using +P.

    In a nutshell, the .40 existed because it did exactly what the FBI decided needed to be done, pass the entirely of the FBI testing protocol. The FBI testing has a proven correlation to real world shootings. Literally any given cartridge that does well in ALL TESTS will do well on the street. However we aren't in the 80's and 90's any longer. Hydrashocks aren't cutting edge. You can now get penetration AND expansion instead of penetration OR expansion, and do it with a barrier blind bullet.

    Kinetic energy does not mean wounding potential. I've explained why here multiple times, feel free to search if you want a more detailed explanation. In brief, it tells you the potential for work, not what the work is. A very shallow messy wound from some 90gr super fast bullet with high (marketing driven) energy numbers isn't as effective as a 147 gr bullet that penetrates deep enough to reach vital organs.

    If I were just starting out, I'd go 9mm. If I already had a .40 and liked it, I'd not ditch it. If I were issued a duty gun in any of the big 3 and got free ammo, I'd use it. Cartridge selection now matters way more than caliber does, and once you get a cartridge that shoots well from your particular gun and passes the ENTIRE battery of FBI tests (not just bare gel and 4LD), it's angels dancing on pinheads.
     

    ashby koss

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    I was speaking about FMJ loads in regards to over penetration. I did not note that originally. I did not realize that ISP issued 45's.

    Who told you .45 has too much penetration for police? ISP issues the Sig P227. You'll typically get LESS penetration from an expanding .45 unless you're using +P.

    In a nutshell, the .40 existed because it did exactly what the FBI decided needed to be done, pass the entirely of the FBI testing protocol. The FBI testing has a proven correlation to real world shootings. Literally any given cartridge that does well in ALL TESTS will do well on the street. However we aren't in the 80's and 90's any longer. Hydrashocks aren't cutting edge. You can now get penetration AND expansion instead of penetration OR expansion, and do it with a barrier blind bullet.

    Kinetic energy does not mean wounding potential. I've explained why here multiple times, feel free to search if you want a more detailed explanation. In brief, it tells you the potential for work, not what the work is. A very shallow messy wound from some 90gr super fast bullet with high (marketing driven) energy numbers isn't as effective as a 147 gr bullet that penetrates deep enough to reach vital organs.

    If I were just starting out, I'd go 9mm. If I already had a .40 and liked it, I'd not ditch it. If I were issued a duty gun in any of the big 3 and got free ammo, I'd use it. Cartridge selection now matters way more than caliber does, and once you get a cartridge that shoots well from your particular gun and passes the ENTIRE battery of FBI tests (not just bare gel and 4LD), it's angels dancing on pinheads.
     

    Trapper Jim

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    Ok no caliber flame war here.... But I've heard that the 40sw was made to have better kinetic energy than the 9mm but better penetration than 45acp.

    BUT, I've also seen that 45acp has same or better penetration than 40sw, and that 45acp (FMJ) had too much penetration for police..., so is 40sw around because of capacity concerns alone?

    What is the real placement for this seemingly "bastard" round. It seems like it should be a best of both worlds, but it maybe the worst of both worlds. Other than capacity it seems that the 45ACP was already the answer for Police & FBI, in regards to the Miami Dade Incident, before the 40sw was even thunk of.

    In short; What is the reason for the 40SW and what role does it play for us civilians and edc?
    IMHO this round was invented by marketing majors. It simply was trying to fix something that wasn’t broke. Like 45GAP and small primer 45 cases, the 40 clutters up our 45 brass.
     

    cosermann

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    ... In a nutshell, the .40 existed because it did exactly what the FBI decided needed to be done, pass the entirely of the FBI testing protocol. ...

    To this I would only add, "given the bullet technology of that time" (i.e. circa 1990).

    There's been a lot of handgun bullet development since then, and it seems the FBI testing protocol can now be passed by the best loadings in any of the service calibers.
     

    jkfletcher

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    Personally, I don't know or care much about the studies on kinetic energy or penetration. I carry .40 because I shoot it better/more accurately. If shot placement matters more than the rest of it, I'm going with what I can put where I mean to put it
     

    crewchief888

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    what i remember reading "back in the day" in a nutshell the 45acp, and more specifically the 1911 platform, was "too much gun" for some potential officers. along comes the 9mm, more rounds in the mag, guns like the ruger P series, glocks, and a few others, made training a new recruit "easier"

    with the bullet technology back then, most 9mm loads werent the greatest performers, along comes the 10mm, and again "too much gun"
    40 SW comes along, bullet technology gets better, all of a sudden it's a great compromise between the "anemic" 9mm and the "hard kicking" 45acp

    thinking back, i dont think ive ever shot a 9mm anything,
    most of the rounds ive put downrange have been 45acp, and a few .40SW
    both my USPSA pistols (open & limited/single stack) are 45's

    i dont remember who wrote an article in one of the gun magazines 20+ years ago, but it basically noted the 45acp, and to a lesser extent the 10mm/40sw leave big holes, and through that hole vital body fluids leak out...


    :cheers:
     

    Hop

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    For those of us with .40 that we like (I still have 2), what's the .40 go to round now a days? If 9mm tech has advanced then so must .40. Do we buy 180 gr Federal HST .40? I honestly haven't tried it because I don't EDC either of my .40. I carry 9mm HST. But if I did want to EDC my .40, then what?
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    I was speaking about FMJ loads in regards to over penetration. I did not note that originally. I did not realize that ISP issued 45's.

    In any caliber larger than .380, for defense against humans, FMJ is for practice only and over penetration isn't a concern. .380, borderline. Anything under .380, a non-expanding bullet. .38 standard pressure, a non-expanding bullet (generally a wadcutter). For any of the duty cartridges, a barrier blind expanding load is the best option.

    what i remember reading "back in the day" in a nutshell the 45acp, and more specifically the 1911 platform, was "too much gun" for some potential officers.

    Standard pressure .45s were (and are) difficult to make barrier blind and pass the entire testing protocol, and they often penetrate LESS after a barrier strike. The old hydrashocks, for example, were very inconsistent in expansion and often just became ball. They also sometimes expanded very asymmetrically, causing them to veer. There are modern cartridges in both standard pressure and +P that work much better. When I carried a P220, I used +P ammo.

    And, again, ISP issues the Sig P227. Conservation officers were carrying the P220 back in the late 90's, early 2000's. It's nothing about "too much gun", particularly given that a steel .45 vs a plastic .40 hardly leaves the impression the .45 is "too much gun" on the shooter's end.

    IMHO this round was invented by marketing majors. It simply was trying to fix something that wasn’t broke.

    No to both, although it gained popularity due to both actually fixing something that was broke (a cartridge for magazine fed pistols that was barrier blind, expanded reliably, and had a reasonable service life of the weapon) and marketing acumen. Mostly piggy-backing off of Glock's taking over of the domestic LE market and Glock's appearance in popular culture. Had the .357 Sig been first to market, it would probably be where .40 is today and the .40 would be the also-ran. .40 was already entrenched, though, and the .357 Sig didn't offer any real difference that would cause the LE market to switch. The LE/Mil market drives a lot of the civilian market as well.

    .45 GAP, yes, Glock's vanity cartridge to have their name on something like Sig and S&W. It made a little more sense in the Clinton ban years, but it was introduced at the tail end of that and didn't really offer the end user anything that the .45 Auto didn't.
     

    Bucky623

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    BBI, Or anyone else. Could you expand on the .45 GAP? I never did understand why this cartridge was ever even brought to market.

    I believe the .45 GAP was introduced as a shorter over all length round to make for a smaller grip.

    439303c979bbf6c9e9f9350d171cf049.jpg
     
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    Ark

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    BBI, Or anyone else. Could you expand on the .45 GAP? I never did understand why this cartridge was ever even brought to market.

    Standard length .45 ACP wouldn't fit into a standard Glock frame. Glock gambled that they could introduce shortened .45 ammo and people would buy it rather than Glock having to make a new frame...which they ended up doing anyway. :rolleyes:

    Performance was the same IIRC, or close. The pressure was increased to make up for decreased powder capacity.
     

    Amishman44

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    The 40 came from the 10mm that police couldn't qualify with. All service handgun calibers suck at killing people. 40 is no better or worse for the EDC role. Shot placement is key to stopping an attack.

    NyleRN is right on the money here...the .40 S&W is a shortened 10mm that the fBI wanted to go to after the Dade County shootout in 1986 (adjusted due to typo) where 4 agents were killed...keeping in mind that they were using fmj 9mm and and .38's, with no jhp's during the shootout! The problem was not all agents could handled the 10mm round. They went to S&W and asked for a 'lighter' 10mm...and the .40 was born...a shortened 10mm....that also fit into the same size grip as the 9mm.

    The .40 S&W is supposed to be 'better' than a 9mm and 'close' to a .45...aka, sort of a 'meet-in-the-middle' between the two.

    Since then...9mm has seen vast improvements...better powders, better designed bullets, etc...but, then again, 9mm had no place to go but up!

    The .40 S&W...has, pretty much, been in 'status quo' mode ever since it's inception...there's really no making it better than it already is!

    The .45 acp round has seen some improvements...again, better jhp bullet design, improved powders, etc...but it's big and capacity will always be a consideration with the .45 acp caliber!

    The question is, is .40 S&W a 'good' round...and the answer is: Yes it is!

    However, with the improvements in 9mm, the capacity issue, and the fact(s) that many officers (federal, state, local) are not comfortable with the .40 S&W round, that 9mm is cheaper to operate in a department's budget,

    Another question becomes, is the 9mm 'sufficient' in it's role as a duty round...and do you really 'trust' it?

    Going back to the basics:
    1. Shot placement is the #1 concern in the defense of stopping a valid threat!
    2. Penetration is the #2 concern...
    3. All other concerns or issues come after that...

    The .40 S&W and the .45 acp both generate a power-factor that the 9mm does not generate...and it has to do with the amount of kinetic energy being disbursed. But, they will also result in a different felt-recoil that is not comfortable to everyone.

    Everyone is different and accommodating those differences is the key to knowing how to better defend one's self in a time of need.

    Basically, in the end, find a caliber you are comfortable with and can shoot accurately...and then, practice, practice, practice!
     
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    NyleRN

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    NyleRN is right on the money here...the .40 S&W is a shortened 10mm that the fBI wanted to go to after the Dade County shootout in 1996 where 4 agents were killed...keeping in mind that they were using fmj 9mm and and .38's, with no jhp's during the shootout! The problem was not all agents could handled the 10mm round. They went to S&W and asked for a 'lighter' 10mm...and the .40 was born...a shortened 10mm....that also fit into the same size grip as the 9mm.

    The .40 S&W is supposed to be 'better' than a 9mm and 'close' to a .45...aka, sort of a 'meet-in-the-middle' between the two.

    Since then...9mm has seen vast improvements...better powders, better designed bullets, etc...but, then again, 9mm had no place to go but up!

    The .40 S&W...has, pretty much, been in 'status quo' mode ever since it's inception...there's really no making it better than it already is!

    The .45 acp round has seen some improvements...again, better jhp bullet design, improved powders, etc...but it's big and capacity will always be a consideration with the .45 acp caliber!

    The question is, is .40 S&W a 'good' round...and the answer is: Yes it is!

    However, with the improvements in 9mm, the capacity issue, and the fact(s) that many officers (federal, state, local) are not comfortable with the .40 S&W round, that 9mm is cheaper to operate in a department's budget,

    Another question becomes, is the 9mm 'sufficient' in it's role as a duty round...and do you really 'trust' it?

    Going back to the basics:
    1. Shot placement is the #1 concern in the defense of stopping a valid threat!
    2. Penetration is the #2 concern...
    3. All other concerns or issues come after that...

    The .40 S&W and the .45 acp both generate a power-factor that the 9mm does not generate...and it has to do with the amount of kinetic energy being disbursed. But, they will also result in a different felt-recoil that is not comfortable to everyone.

    Everyone is different and accommodating those differences is the key to knowing how to better defend one's self in a time of need. Basically, in the end, find a caliber you are comfortable with and can shoot accurately...and then, practice, practice, practice!

    The Miami shootout was a decade earlier than what you posted. Probably just a typographical error
     

    ashby koss

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    I've always found the 45ACP to be less recoil than the 40sw, but I highly suspect this is due to the steel 1911 perceived Recoil versus the poly frame Glock 40sw and its perceived recoil. Add to that the 1911 trigger and well...... yea.

    Interesting that 9mm is so popular, but only with modern JHP. I know that there is a great of budgetary concern in here as well.

    Personally I stock 9mm, 40 and 45, but for edc I tend to only move down from 45acp if I feel a need. 40 for higher capacity vs 45, and 9mm for greater concealability if needed.
     
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