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  1. #31
    Plinker 2A-Hoosier23's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    I'll go as far to say that police need to stop providing firearms training to officers. If they want know how to use the firearms they carry at work, they have to get that training on their own and pay for it themselves.
    Unless this is entirely sarcastic and I'm missing it, I don't think teachers' training should be taxpayer funding because it's not part of their official capacity or their duty to be proficient with a firearm, it's only a right / choice to. But it's certainly in a LEO's official capacity to be able to use their firearm proficiently so it's more justified that taxpayer money go there.

  2. #32
    Grandmaster Coach's Avatar

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    I just read this thread. Some thoughts.

    I think this bill will make schools safer. Because now the Superintendent who knows nothing about guns has a training program that costs them no money and has been endorsed by the GA. This will open more eye, but not all of them.

    The GA will always leave the locals in charge to make the decision for their school. The tone and language yesterday in the chambers was clear on that. I agree with that. Local control is a poor system but it is better than anything else.

    If you want teachers to pay for their training to protect your kids then LE needs to pay for their own training, their own gun, their own ammo. I will supply the gun and I will supply the ammo and all of the gear and I will supply the marksmanship when it is needed. A little help with the training cost to protect your kids would be appreciated and seem reasonable.

    I think an armed teacher should have continuing training yearly and should have to pass a shooting qualification or three each semester or year. I think the armed teacher should shoot and pass the ILEA course of fire and the FBI course of fire and pass to be allowed to carry and maybe a third test.

    I think INGO and the gun community should get behind this bill and help it pass. Then we can work on the next step.
    No one is stronger or more dangerous than the man who can harness his emotions.

    www.BrightFirearmsTraining.com

    abright@ccrtc.com


  3. #33
    Grandmaster littletommy's Avatar

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    So, the intention of this bill is to make sure that those who carry in schools actually know what theyíre doing with a firearm? Yeah, thatís just silly.
    Though it's just a memory
    Some memories last forever- RUSH- Lakeside Park

  4. #34
    Expert

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    To everybody who's opposed to bills that are less than ideal, "incrementalism" is a double edged sword. It works for the left and we should make it work for us. To put this in perspective, many teeth are knashed over "pink permission slips" (I don't like it either) but in 1989 you could count the number of states with "shall issue" CCW laws on one hand--and maybe have fingers left over. Today there are about a dozen states with "Constitutional" carry, and even IL is "shall issue".

  5. #35
    Master Alamo's Avatar

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    Just as a data point or two since this ground has been plowed elsewhere:

    Out of a little over 1000 school districts in Texas, over 230 of them, via their school boards, have authorized some non-LEO staff -- teachers and administrators -- to carry handguns, and in some cases have access to rifles and shotguns.

    Although there is a Legislature-initiated "School Marshal" program available, the overwhelming majority of them use the more effective and more flexible, grass-roots created "Guardian Program", first developed by the first Texas school district (Harrold ISD) to arm its administrators/teachers back in 2008. The only legally mandated requirements under this program are that the teacher or administrator have a License to Carry and the school board approve carry in writing. However all the districts I am aware of also locally require training and a psychological evaluation. I don't know that all of those districts provide the funding for guns, ammo, and training, but all the ones I have read about do, out of their existing budgets. I am sure there are teachers and administrators who have paid for their own training because they wanted to get it done.

    The Texas Department of Public Safety has the statutory responsibility of developing a two day "school safety certification for handgun instructors", which is an add-on to the instructor certification available to those (civilian, non-DPS) who teach Texas's License to Carry courses. Those instructors who obtain this certification then may instruct teachers/administrators to provide them with a DPS certification. I believe this course was created to support the School Marshal program, but anyone may take the course and many of the school districts that use the Guardian Program instead of the Marshal Program use the DPS course. There are other civilian training courses offered in Texas that focus on the school environment as well.

    In a rational world it one would think that when a state legislature is pursuing an idea they might look to the experience of others who have already implemented the idea.

    To my knowledge, none of the schools that have Guardian or Marshal programs have had to execute them, at least not to the point of engaging a hostile shooter. I believe I have heard of one negative experience, where a teacher unintentionally discharged a firearm, but I am not completely certain of that. IIRC it was during training, not in a school, but I might be wrong.

    I am leery of state-mandated training, or mandating "only" state-specified because this type of thing has a tendency to become a choke or control point and evolve to fit the needs of the bureaucracy that's created to administer it. The difficult, essential stuff gets dumbed-down, the adminstrivia gets lawyered (sorry lawyers but it's true) into becoming the essential, and it turns into a cumbersome, ineffective mess.

    However, when one steps beyond personal defense to formally take on the defense of others, and particularly having to work with others (i.e. other armed teachers and incoming police), I think it is necessary to provide some training for the people who are going to carry out the mission.

  6. #36
    Le mot juste 2A_Tom's Avatar

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    There are a lot of schools for sale in Indiana.

    https://www.loopnet.com/indiana_schools-for-sale/

    This one is in Indianapolis.

    https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/2801...s-IN/14016536/

    One could be designated as an SRO/School Employee Training Center. It would have class rooms for instruction. It may have a gym that could be converted to an indoor shooting range and the rooms corridors can be used for blue gun shoot house instruction.

    Parts could be setup as dormitories.

    Superintendents and at least one board member should be invited to obverse the training in progress.




  7. #37
    Grandmaster KellyinAvon's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by brotherbill3 View Post
    The whole thing made more sense when it removed the GFZ for school properties/buses for ALL with an LTCH.
    (so much for that training required crap ... as one who was trained by our own H&K - I have no certificates to back it up.)
    (and I do have grandkids in school; and my dad was a teacher for 38 yrs) ...

    BUT as it is (and from my very limited ability to follow this year) - the purpose to to get teachers/staff a path to approval that school boards should find acceptable
    and a free (they're already giving 40 hrs (that's a work week) of their time to get the training - the cost for several teachers to be trained is less than 1 SRO for a year.

    Anyway. IMO/ YMMV etc. - back to the grindstone keeping me busy from actively helping.
    LTCH negating GFZ is a bridge too far BB3. Force multipliers (I didn't say that out loud yesterday, but I was thinkin the hell out of it) make schools a much less attractive target to the next would-be Harris and Klebold. OPSEC and dressing for concealed carry will go a long way. I don't see anybody carrying a hog leg in drop-holster, Coach maybe...

    As far as 40 hours/1 week of training: they got all summer to do that
    INGOer #25,448

  8. #38
    Master NHT3's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by lperagallo View Post
    But now the bill would allow state funds to be paid for training. I would think you would want trained teachers with firearms to be properly trained. How many people do you know who own firearms and fail to get properly trained? How many actually practice, so god forbid there is an incident, they don't have to think how to use the firearm?
    To answer your question my guess would be less than 20% of the people who own firearms have had any useful training. The state spends so much money in completely useless endeavors I personally think paying for teachers training would be a good use of funds. I see it as a very small price to pay to keep children safe.
    Any man can make mistakes but only and idiot persists in his error.. Cicero 200 BC

  9. #39
    Grandmaster Dead Duck's Avatar

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    I look at it this way. This is the start of a program. It will have some kind of title, budget, goals, etc.. like other programs. It's something solid. It's a file you can hold in your hand. It's a first step of an answer to a problem. The naysayers will now have something to gauge things on, to compare things to or blame things on depending what happens.

    What I mean is this....
    My x-wife never took my ideas or opinions seriously. But if her friends or a doctor or she got it in some magazine of the same exact ideas or opinions, she would use it as the golden rule. But never from me. Hence the "X"-wife.

    This program is something solid that might push the naysayers to at least accept that it exists and go from there. And hoping we can get a few anti-gunners out shooting with this. Have you ever had anyone shoot a gun that didn't have a huge smile on their face?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah View Post
    "Don't be afraid of the enemy! Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes!" - Jerusalem 445 BC
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus View Post
    "If you don't have a gun, sell your coat and buy one." - Jerusalem April 14th, 30 AD - Thursday, 11:38pm IST
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenway View Post
    INGO SUCKS.....

  10. #40
    Plinker

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    I just read this thread. Some thoughts.

    I think this bill will make schools safer. Because now the Superintendent who knows nothing about guns has a training program that costs them no money and has been endorsed by the GA. This will open more eye, but not all of them.

    The GA will always leave the locals in charge to make the decision for their school. The tone and language yesterday in the chambers was clear on that. I agree with that. Local control is a poor system but it is better than anything else.

    If you want teachers to pay for their training to protect your kids then LE needs to pay for their own training, their own gun, their own ammo. I will supply the gun and I will supply the ammo and all of the gear and I will supply the marksmanship when it is needed. A little help with the training cost to protect your kids would be appreciated and seem reasonable.

    I think an armed teacher should have continuing training yearly and should have to pass a shooting qualification or three each semester or year. I think the armed teacher should shoot and pass the ILEA course of fire and the FBI course of fire and pass to be allowed to carry and maybe a third test.

    I think INGO and the gun community should get behind this bill and help it pass. Then we can work on the next step.
    Coach, what are your thoughts on guns in safes vs on body carry for teachers? Being an educator and licensed to carry holder myself, I canít imagine leaving my firearm someplace I am not located...especially in a school setting.

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