“No firearms” signs this weekend for NRA convention

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  • jsharmon7

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    For those who don’t follow Abdul-Hakim Shabazz, “Moms Demand Action” is handing out signs to downtown Indianapolis businesses ahead of the convention this week. The signs say people with firearms are denied entry, pursuant to Indiana criminal trespass statutes. Guy Relford says these actually hold weight of law, so be careful. Check out A-HS’s twitter or Facebook for photos.

    Who knows if any businesses will post it, but keep your eyes peeled if you’re downtown this weekend.
     

    Sylvain

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    Do the signs come with X-ray glasses?

    x-ray-vision1.jpg
     

    Selfpreservation

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    For those who don’t follow Abdul-Hakim Shabazz, “Moms Demand Action” is handing out signs to downtown Indianapolis businesses ahead of the convention this week. The signs say people with firearms are denied entry, pursuant to Indiana criminal trespass statutes. Guy Relford says these actually hold weight of law, so be careful. Check out A-HS’s twitter or Facebook for photos.

    Who knows if any businesses will post it, but keep your eyes peeled if you’re downtown this weekend.

    If it is a place you can otherwise legally carry a firearm, you can ignore the signs. The legal part comes into play if, for some reason they find out you have a firearm (which they shouldn't if you carry correctly) and they ask you to leave. If you refuse, then the charge is Trespassing. Having the gun is not the charge.

    So, if you screw up and let them know you have a firearm and they ask you to leave, then just leave. No harm, no foul.
     

    jsharmon7

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    If it is a place you can otherwise legally carry a firearm, you can ignore the signs. The legal part comes into play if, for some reason they find out you have a firearm (which they shouldn't if you carry correctly) and they ask you to leave. If you refuse, then the charge is Trespassing. Having the gun is not the charge.

    So, if you screw up and let them know you have a firearm and they ask you to leave, then just leave. No harm, no foul.

    These signs specifically bar entry though. They are different than “no guns” signs which are generic in nature. These are specific in that they bar entry to those carrying firearms. It appears they meet the legal criteria in Indiana, and Guy Relford seems to agree. I’m only posting this to maybe save somebody a headache. I doubt IMPD would arrest someone just for walking in with a firearm, but why roll the dice?
     

    Selfpreservation

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    These signs specifically bar entry though. They are different than “no guns” signs which are generic in nature. These are specific in that they bar entry to those carrying firearms. It appears they meet the legal criteria in Indiana, and Guy Relford seems to agree. I’m only posting this to maybe save somebody a headache. I doubt IMPD would arrest someone just for walking in with a firearm, but why roll the dice?

    I haven't heard him speak on this issue, but my guess is something got lost in translation. In Indiana, "NO GUNS" signs mean nothing until the business owner, or a designee, tells you to leave. At that point, if you leave you have not committed a crime. If you refuse, you can be arrested for trespass.

    In fact, at least in Marion County, ignoring a sign that says "NO TRESPASSING" is not enough to make an arrest. The prosecutor's office has been very clear on it. The reason they give is the statute says "Knowingly and Intentionally". They say a person can just say they did not see the sign, can't read it, or don't even speak English. So, they say the person has to be told to leave by the owner or an agent of the business AND the person has to refuse to leave in order to make the arrest.

    Other counties may take a different approach. These are those gray areas I often speak about when it comes to the law.
     

    JettaKnight

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    These signs specifically bar entry though. They are different than “no guns” signs which are generic in nature. These are specific in that they bar entry to those carrying firearms. It appears they meet the legal criteria in Indiana, and Guy Relford seems to agree. I’m only posting this to maybe save somebody a headache.

    :scratch:

    Not seeing anything on Guy's Twitter feed...

    And how exactly are these signs different? Do they use the phrase “Klaatu barada nikto”?
    :dunno:


    I doubt IMPD would arrest someone just for walking in with a firearm, but why roll the dice?
    Because Freedom, that's why.
     

    Denny347

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    Hmmm, I was told that holstered handguns WILL be allowed into the convention but no rifles. That came from a person planning our logistical support for the crowd at the convention.
     

    HoughMade

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    These signs specifically bar entry though. They are different than “no guns” signs which are generic in nature. These are specific in that they bar entry to those carrying firearms. It appears they meet the legal criteria in Indiana, and Guy Relford seems to agree. I’m only posting this to maybe save somebody a headache. I doubt IMPD would arrest someone just for walking in with a firearm, but why roll the dice?

    I would not disagree with Guy.

    I would simply state that in my quick look at the issue, it is a close enough call that if I were advising a client, I would tell them that it is possible that a trespassing charge could stick. There is no way to know for certain until someone is charged and the case works it's way into the appellate courts. What they would do with that information....
     

    d.kaufman

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    Hmmm, I was told that holstered handguns WILL be allowed into the convention but no rifles. That came from a person planning our logistical support for the crowd at the convention.

    Believe the op is saying that moms who cant get any action are handing these signs out to local buisnesses to put in their establishments. Nothing about these at the convention center itself
     

    KittySlayer

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    The legal part comes into play if, for some reason they find out you have a firearm (which they shouldn't if you carry[STRIKE] correctly [/STRIKE]concealed) and they ask you to leave.

    FIFY a handgun can be open carried correctly.

    Based on reputation and no other knowledge I would follow Guy's second hand advice. Sadly there will be many from out of state who live where signs have the weight of law and will not take the risk. I hope that any business that gets suckered into posting one of these feels a sucking sound in their wallet.
     
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    Selfpreservation

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    FIFY a handgun can be open carried correctly.

    Based on reputation and no other knowledge I would follow Guy's second hand advice. Sadly there will be many from out of state who live where signs have the weight of law and will not take the risk. I hope that any business that gets suckered into posting one of these feels a sucking sound in their wallet.

    1) Care to explain, or better yet, show how to do so without anyone knowing you have gun, which is the point in this case?

    2) Show his quote or audio giving the advice you are recommending be followed.
     

    Selfpreservation

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    Hmmm, I was told that holstered handguns WILL be allowed into the convention but no rifles. That came from a person planning our logistical support for the crowd at the convention.

    Unless something has changed from the previous 3 conventions I attended, you will be good to go carrying inside.
     

    churchmouse

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    So there will be thousands and thousands of pistol packing money spending possible customers in the downtown area and these idiots will be passing up the opportunity.........:dunno:
     

    jsharmon7

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    I would not disagree with Guy.

    I would simply state that in my quick look at the issue, it is a close enough call that if I were advising a client, I would tell them that it is possible that a trespassing charge could stick. There is no way to know for certain until someone is charged and the case works it's way into the appellate courts. What they would do with that information....

    This is the point I’m trying to make. It’s just a heads-up, and everyone can do as they wish. It’s very unlikely an arrest would be made, and almost zero chance a charge would actually be filed. But, the signs would seem to satisfy the legal requirement. Is it close enough to just choose to avoid the issue if encountered? I think so.
     

    femurphy77

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    So there will be thousands and thousands of pistol packing money spending possible customers in the downtown area and these idiots will be passing up the opportunity.........:dunno:


    Exactly. A co-workers daughter works at the downtown Hooters and nobody wants to work during the convention due to all the (shudder) guns. I told her to tell her daughter who has waited on me multiple times that she is always near a gun when she is near me and it's highly unlikely I'm the only one.

    Besides I'm guessing that the tips will be great as with any other convention, why miss out on the opportunity because of mass hysteria?
     

    lonehoosier

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    Please take some time to check out this thread. I think it will help with confusion.

    https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/carry-issues-self-defense/58317-you-going-jail.html

    I've had a few requests, here's my next "legal scenario."

    You're entering a local tavern when you see a large sign on the front door that says the following:

    "ABSOLUTELY NO FIREARMS!!
    ANYONE CARRYING A FIREARM IS EXPRESSLY DENIED ENTRY TO THESE PREMISES.
    IF YOU CARRY A GUN INTO THIS BUILDING YOU ARE SUBJECT TO IMMEDIATE ARREST AND PROSECUTION."

    You have your License to Carry Handgun, so you ignore the sign and enter the tavern. You have several beers at the bar.

    As you stand up to go to the bathroom, your untucked shirt rides up on your hip and a waitress notices your Glock M30 .45 in your IWB holster.

    She reports you to the owner.

    No one says anything to you - the owner just call the cops.

    A police officer arrives, waits for back-up, then enters the bar and confronts you. He takes possession of your Glock. He asks to see your LTCH.

    Then he asks you if you've been drinking.

    You show him your LTCH, and tell him the truth - you've had several beers.

    Are you going to jail?
     

    HKUSP

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    Speaking from the perspective of someone who came from a state where gunbuster signs had force of law, it may indeed deter out of staters.

    We spent a lot of time combating those signs. It was irritating. Some silly hoplophobe slaps up a sign thinking it is a magic talisman and no one would possibly object or want to discuss it. I don't miss it at all. The reality we don't really like to accept is that there are some people that are living in such denial they really believe that a stupid sign will stop a criminal from coming in to do them harm. They are so ignorant they willingly lump legal carriers into the same category with armed robbers and place their faith in a sign that blends in with all of the other signs and stickers businesses plaster on their doors.

    If you cared you would out yourself pausing at entryways looking for a sign. I stopped caring, and did my best to conceal if I found myself absolutely without choice in dealing with a posted business. I also made it a point to not go back a second time.
     
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