GA: Tueller drill in real life

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  • Alamo

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    I'm guessing suicide by cops.
    Police release body cam footage of officer shooting


    There are two body camera videos at the link and for once they are pretty clear and not obstructed by the officers' hands or movement.

    I looked for youtube versions I could embed here, but all the ones I found are edited, leave out parts of the video, and mostly feature talking heads.

    So follow the link.
     

    Ark

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    Textbook suicide by cop, no doubt.

    Impressive self control and marksmanship under pressure at the end there.
     

    Alamo

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    The first officer fired seven shots. Don't know the number of hits, but the knife guy got back up and attacked again. Don't know why the officer didn't shoot again immediately, even if he saw the knife was laying on the ground. It took two more shots from the other officer to put the attacker down for good. That's at least nine shots to stop the threat. One more than the S&W eight-shot Model 627, and three more than the standard revolver. Why do you need a 15+ round magazine?
     

    rhino

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    The first officer fired seven shots. Don't know the number of hits, but the knife guy got back up and attacked again. Don't know why the officer didn't shoot again immediately, even if he saw the knife was laying on the ground. It took two more shots from the other officer to put the attacker down for good. That's at least nine shots to stop the threat. One more than the S&W eight-shot Model 627, and three more than the standard revolver. Why do you need a 15+ round magazine?

    That's why the "If I can't handle it with XX shots . . ." thinking is absurd.

    NO ONE CAN PREDICT HOW MANY ROUNDS IT WILL TAKE TO STOP A THREAT.

    The statistics showing low rounds counts in defensive shootings also include psychological stops. When someone is shot once in the body and they fall or surrender immediately (assuming no central nervous system trauma or severe damage to skeletal support), it's because they chose to quit or were programmed to quit by popular culture. A person doesn't bleed that fast. Clearly situations are usually resolved with a small number of rounds expended, but what about those times when it doesn't go that way? Some people are more determined or are rendered a bit more durable via chemical abuse.
     

    Brad69

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    The Police involved did what they had to do.

    1. It’s not uncommon IME for a person to recover from the shock of being shot, when they fall to the ground it puts them into the same position you would put a shock victim. This position stabilizes the blood pressure and often they recover enough to stand back up and run.

    2. A human is a tougher animal than most think a highly motivated person can take a tremendous amount of damage often fatal and keep on running. We hunt deer with caliber restrictions for a reason, humans IMO should be viewed in the same manner, if you wanna stop them a 5.56, 7.62x39, 12 gauge or bigger is preferred. Sidearms are not very effective weapons in many situations this situation was one of them.

    3. The effects of someone you just shot several times getting back up is unnerving and may slow your reaction time as you mind processes WTF just happened.

    4. Your targets with a pistol are two grapefruit sized targets if you don’t hit one of them the bad guy might run you down and kill you.

    5. I hope nobody here has to shoot anyone but everyone as a responsible person needs to Train and prepare for bad situations that get worse.

    BTW
    Rino IMO made some great points about some of the other human reactions that take place upon getting shot.
     
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    Twangbanger

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    This is what the angry black civil rights "you didn't have to kill him" types don't get.
    It's also what the world would look like for everyone, without stand-your-ground laws.

    When you start backing away, getting pushed into territory you cannot control and cannot effectively see, in this case with the perp between the officer and his cruiser, and you are required to give the perp every chance in the world, all kinds of stupid stuff can happen, which should totally not have to happen.

    Shooting is one thing. Shooting on the move is another. Fighting going backwards, is a whole different order of difficulty. You have to try it, to understand it.

    This is the reason why requiring private citizens to adhere to a principle of "exercising your duty of retreat" is a ludicrous concept dreamed up by high-minded but naïve people who have never even thought about what it would require to try to survive this type of stressful encounter, and could frankly probably care less what they are asking people to do.

    It's also the reason I don't want to be a cop. I don't want to be a social worker while dancing backwards like Ginger Rogers and shooting.
     
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    Indyal

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    That is a good video to show anyone who carries. Of course we all know that if it had been a .45 acp...
     
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    rosejm

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    The first officer fired seven shots. Don't know the number of hits

    Can't be sure, but there only look to be 2 or possibly 3 hits at the end of that string (5&6, maybe 7). All shots low.
    https://video.wixstatic.com/video/2d1f59_2813b1acd8124481ac15f1802a2cb49b/720p/mp4/file.mp4



    Partner had more time and needed to be more accurate. Only needed the first one of his 4, because it went where it counted.
    https://video.wixstatic.com/video/2d1f59_1b121b3d7d4742588ab7bb6e4344c26a/720p/mp4/file.mp4
     

    MCgrease08

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    It didn't take long for John at Active Self Protection to get a breakdown of this one posted.

    [video=youtube_share;iCpd3-Ha-Lc]http://youtu.be/iCpd3-Ha-Lc[/video]
     

    Brad69

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    Setup the target of your choice Start from the low ready simulate a startled response and start back peddling as fast as you can while firing 7 shots as fast as you can.
    I would bet $20 that you will be shooting low!

    I was not at at the event nor am I responsible for training the Officers or equipping them. IMO they did what they had to do and nothing seems to go as planned or exactly as you have trained for. It seems to me you apply templates of your training to the real life situation.
    One small note the primary PO seemed to grab his radio mic and start talking after shooting taking his support hand off his weapon, he may have lost focus. This could be a panic response or a training scar? No need to communicate on a radio when you have your people all around you IMO. I have did the same thing myself screamed into a radio for about 30 seconds I finally realized it wasn’t working.

    Some important training lessons I think can be taken from this event.
    When confronted with a person running at you I have witnessed about 4 different reactions.

    1. Shoot them to the ground (military and civilian training and definitions are different)

    2. Back peddle and shoot them (a human running backwards will fall at some point then your on you back might one train for that)

    3. Freeze ( it happens)

    4. Turn your back and run away (it happens)

    Its not uncommon for a person to recover from hits and continue the fight or run away.

    How to train for this situation gets beyond casual square range stuff.

    1. Shooting while moving in all directions FAST (hard to do with a full firing line and you have to master shooting on the move slow first)

    2. Moving targets people do not generally stand still and can move much faster than you think when full of adrenaline moving target ranges or using movers on a static range from different angles will allow some experience of the dynamics of how to shoot when both parties are moving.
    (expensive to buy and maintain a moving target range)

    3. Shooting on the move or moving target your effective range with a pistol is about 15 meters IMO.

    BTW
    We have Instructors here on INGO that train at this level and instruct as well. IMO just as good as national level instructors at a much cheaper rate.
     
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    Coach

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    Those officers did all they could do to not shoot. They probably have to much.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    Those officers did all they could do to not shoot. They probably have to much.

    Agreed. WAAAAY too much.

    Not faulting them. I wouldnt want to shoot somebody I didnt have to either. Two VERY compassionate professionals who got lucky nobody else got hurt.
     

    Selfpreservation

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    Lots of good points already made. I will say the willingness to shoot has to be thought about well before the time comes. That goes for anyone who carries a firearm for protection, not just law enforcement. My gut tells me the officer doing the talking had not come to grips with that reality prior to this event.

    As far as tactics, one officer with less lethal and one with deadly force option would be a better choice. Once that's established, a "line in the sand" needs to be drawn. Continuing to backup presents risks. You risk losing your backdrop, falling, allowing the suspect to become emboldened and the event moving to an area where more people are now put in danger.

    For private sector or law enforcement, force on force training involving shooting (airsoft/sims/utms), combatives and edged weapons is a great way to train for this type of situation.
     

    Denny347

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    Suicide by cop. It's possible the officer recognized this and wanted to stall. I have little issue with the retreat. My only critique is that the officer would likely been better off retreating back to the patrol car where it serves as a barrier and possibly access to more weapons. I get the "drawing the line" but make sure the line is genuinely needed where it was drawn. If I have traffic shut down and no pedestrians, way more leeway. 3rd parties too close, line will be closer. With mental health problems only growing worse, suicide by cop is only going to get worse and we are not going to shoot our way out of this. Our measured response demonstrates how much value we place on the life of the person in crisis.
     
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