Lawrence shooting: self defense?

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  • jsharmon7

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    This just happened within the past day or two:

    EDIT: This version has more info than the Fox 59 version.

    https://www.wthr.com/article/suspect-lawrence-sandwich-shop-shooting-claims-self-defense

    There was apparently a verbal altercation. The victim untucked his shirt and then approached the suspect with his palms open and facing forward. Suspect draws and shoots the victim from a range of 4ft. Shooter had a valid LTCH and stayed at the scene.


    Now, that’s pretty limited info, but I think the shooter is going to have a tough time with this argument. Either there was more to the verbal altercation, or the shooter didn’t understand his legal grounds to shoot. I always encourage gun owners to get legal training in addition to the physical aspect of self defense.
     
    Last edited:

    NHT3

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    This just happened within the past day or two:

    https://fox59.com/2019/08/12/self-defense-may-be-claim-in-deadly-lawrence-shooting/

    There was apparently a verbal altercation. The victim untucked his shirt and then approached the suspect with his palms open and facing forward. Suspect draws and shoots the victim from a range of 4ft. Shooter had a valid LTCH and stayed at the scene.


    Now, that’s pretty limited info, but I think the shooter is going to have a tough time with this argument. Either there was more to the verbal altercation, or the shooter didn’t understand his legal grounds to shoot. I always encourage gun owners to get legal training in addition to the physical aspect of self defense.
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a huge percentage of people with a LTCH have NO idea when they might be justified to use lethal force in defending themselves or others.
    [FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
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    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
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    KellyinAvon

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    Yes you can get it at 18. Can’t buy a handgun from a dealer until 21

    Ninja'd by a Rooster!! Serious question: did I read in another story he was in his car? If yes that is Castle Doctrine.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    This just happened within the past day or two:

    EDIT: This version has more info than the Fox 59 version.

    https://www.wthr.com/article/suspect-lawrence-sandwich-shop-shooting-claims-self-defense

    There was apparently a verbal altercation. The victim untucked his shirt and then approached the suspect with his palms open and facing forward. Suspect draws and shoots the victim from a range of 4ft. Shooter had a valid LTCH and stayed at the scene.


    Now, that’s pretty limited info, but I think the shooter is going to have a tough time with this argument. Either there was more to the verbal altercation, or the shooter didn’t understand his legal grounds to shoot. I always encourage gun owners to get legal training in addition to the physical aspect of self defense.

    This will be the key. At first I was thinking palms out? That dudes cooked, and then as I thought about it more, it made sense. I've seen a lot of guys untuck their shirts and then posture their hands in the "what you gonna do" stance, just before they take a swing at you. Now can his be articulated to justify the shooting? That seems like an uphill battle, but it wouldn't surprise me, if the deceased had every intention of attacking the shooter.
     

    jsharmon7

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    This will be the key. At first I was thinking palms out? That dudes cooked, and then as I thought about it more, it made sense. I've seen a lot of guys untuck their shirts and then posture their hands in the "what you gonna do" stance, just before they take a swing at you. Now can his be articulated to justify the shooting? That seems like an uphill battle, but it wouldn't surprise me, if the deceased had every intention of attacking the shooter.

    It’s probably his only hope at this point. Threats were made and the victim approached...will that be enough?
     

    Sigblitz

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    There's no disparity of force. Did he think the other guy was armed?

    I would add the brain isn't fully developed until age 23, but with adult toys come adult consequences.
     

    HoughMade

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    There's no disparity of force. Did he think the other guy was armed?

    I would add the brain isn't fully developed until age 23, but with adult toys come adult consequences.

    I'm more interested in whether any belief about whether the guy had a gun was a reasonable belief...and even then, he has to have a reasonable belief that he is in danger of death or great bodily injury, not just that a guy has a gun. If that were enough, all the OCers are going to have a rough time.
     

    MuncieFud

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    I think the lead up to the shooting is going to be important. Did the shooter try to verbally deescalate? Did he try to retreat? If I’m trying to deescalate and someone is still closing in on me and I can no longer retreat, I would seriously consider using my firearm as well. It’s not going to be fun in court but you know what they say. “ something something judged by 12 than carried by 6”
     

    LP1

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    In no particular order... Not sure why it matters whether or not the deceased had a gun - lots of damage to be done with fists. Was it mutual combat? Sounds like the shooter had some carry knowledge, since he waited for police to arrive. From various reports, I get the impression that the shooter knew that he might be walking into a threatening situation - prudent thing would be to leave (or not go there in the first place). What does this all add up to? IDK
     

    jsharmon7

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    What does this all add up to? IDK

    That’s why I posted this up for discussion. I think it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. I don’t think you have to wait until fists or bullets are flying, but you better be able to justify what you did and why when the other party has shown no aggressive behavior according to the video.
     
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