Low light training class taken, now have several questions.

[WanderingSol07]

I took a 4.5 hour low light training class last night, Line Of Defense by Len Halascsak at Linden Conservation Club just north of Linden, Indiana.

I learned there is self defense ammo made for short barreled pistols. I had 115gr, 124gr, and 147gr JHP Fiocchi. With my S & W M&P9 Shield 2.0 (3.1" barrel) the 124gr gave me an apparent flash of bright white light about 3' in diameter! I suspect it is for guns with a longer barrel. The 147gr rounds gave me an orange flash slightly larger than my fist. Hornandy Critical Defense was slightly smaller. My Federal FMJ pratice ammo was similar to the Fiocchi 147gr and Hornandy. What ammo have you shot in your ~3" barrel pistol at night and how was the flash?

I learned the 'tactical' flashlight I have sucks, I cannot turn it off/on with the butt switch with my thumb, switch is recessed too much. When I do get it on, it randomly turns on to full intensity, flashing, strobe, or dim. It has a lanyard at the switch end. It was a joke watching me fool with the light for 5-10 seconds before I could turn it on and point it.

My 'car light' has the switch just behind the bulb (sword style?), does not have a hot spot and would illuminate the the entire 25 yard range from 25 yards, got it at Ace for $30.

Len had a dozen flashlights, the best one for me had a non recessed butt switch and a switch on the side near the front. Not as bright at my 'car light' but a bit smaller and easier to handle.

Shot holding a flashlight from 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 different positions, Len had names for most of them, I'm a lefty, the most comfortable for me was holding the light directly under the butt of the pistol. It felt safer too as I never crossed my arms with the potential of moving my hand in front of the muzzle. I know, training and practice should eliminate bad behavior...

Having a light mounted on the pistol made everything much easier, not as bright, but now had a two handed grip and it was easier for me to turn the light on and off as needed. Reloads were easy without having to turn off the flashlight and find a place to stick it (back pocket-turns on when I don't want it to, under the left arm-decreased gun hand range, or finding a coat pocket).

I'm now researching to find out what light comes from S & W on the Shield so I can get one and then order a holster that will handle the light.

What works for you during low light shooting?

This was a good course, a lot of info in the time, shot about 100 rounds, could have shot more as I tried different positions, lights, and such. If you carry and/or have for home defense be sure to practice in low/no light.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Not a fan of WML. Surefire ED2 and shooting skills night or day rain or shine. Ammo unimportant except for the marketing majors that push them. I know this will generate hate mail but you asked....just my opinion.

 

[rhino]

I took a 4.5 hour low light training class last night, Line Of Defense by Len Halascsak at Linden Conservation Club just north of Linden, Indiana.

I learned there is self defense ammo made for short barreled pistols. I had 115gr, 124gr, and 147gr JHP Fiocchi. With my S & W M&P9 Shield 2.0 (3.1" barrel) the 124gr gave me an apparent flash of bright white light about 3' in diameter! I suspect it is for guns with a longer barrel. The 147gr rounds gave me an orange flash slightly larger than my fist. Hornandy Critical Defense was slightly smaller. My Federal FMJ pratice ammo was similar to the Fiocchi 147gr and Hornandy. What ammo have you shot in your ~3" barrel pistol at night and how was the flash?

I learned the 'tactical' flashlight I have sucks, I cannot turn it off/on with the butt switch with my thumb, switch is recessed too much. When I do get it on, it randomly turns on to full intensity, flashing, strobe, or dim. It has a lanyard at the switch end. It was a joke watching me fool with the light for 5-10 seconds before I could turn it on and point it.

My 'car light' has the switch just behind the bulb (sword style?), does not have a hot spot and would illuminate the the entire 25 yard range from 25 yards, got it at Ace for $30.

Len had a dozen flashlights, the best one for me had a non recessed butt switch and a switch on the side near the front. Not as bright at my 'car light' but a bit smaller and easier to handle.

Shot holding a flashlight from 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 different positions, Len had names for most of them, I'm a lefty, the most comfortable for me was holding the light directly under the butt of the pistol. It felt safer too as I never crossed my arms with the potential of moving my hand in front of the muzzle. I know, training and practice should eliminate bad behavior...

Having a light mounted on the pistol made everything much easier, not as bright, but now had a two handed grip and it was easier for me to turn the light on and off as needed. Reloads were easy without having to turn off the flashlight and find a place to stick it (back pocket-turns on when I don't want it to, under the left arm-decreased gun hand range, or finding a coat pocket).

I'm now researching to find out what light comes from S & W on the Shield so I can get one and then order a holster that will handle the light.

What works for you during low light shooting?

This was a good course, a lot of info in the time, shot about 100 rounds, could have shot more as I tried different positions, lights, and such. If you carry and/or have for home defense be sure to practice in low/no light.

It's good that you got a first exposure to low light shooting and learned about some deficiencies with your gear.

Muzzle flash is something that's just going to happen. Some premium defense ammo has a flash retardant, so that's one reason why you see a difference. Ammo for short barrels is more about gaining sufficient velocity in the short barrel than anything else. I don't know if it will change anything with muzzle flash.

Given that, I've done a significant amount of shooting in low light and no light. I've never experienced any issue with muzzle flash other than sometimes (usually not) noticing it when I fire. It doesn't affect my vision or accuracy in any noticeable way. The only issue with muzzle flash that would concern me is if I were trying to hide from someone else when I was shooting. Not being a sniper or a soldier on a battlefield, that's not an issue for me. To me it's just a point of interest, not something that makes much difference (and keep in mind that I'm not using night vision devices).

Simpler is usually better. There are a lot of flashlights on the markets and some make better defensive tools than others. Part is personal preference, but a tail switch that you can actually use effectively is pretty handy. To me, the standard is the Fenix UC35. You can spend more or less on other brands, but they work well. and are reliable.

In terms of how you use the light in conjunction with your gun goes, you'd be best served to pick two or maybe three that work the best for you based on objective standards: can you see your sights, can you see the target, how is your accuracy, and how quickly can you engage a target (based on a timer, not how you feel about it). How things feel isn't a good standard because all of it is awkward to a beginner and none will feel "good" until you have reasonably mastered the skills. The key thing to remember is that the primary function of the light is to help you see what you need to see and in doing so, not hinder your shooting too much if shooting is necessary.


In my experience, most people are best served by techniques that use one hand for the light and one hand for shooting. Most people do well with a jaw/neck index of the light, or better, placing the light on the temple or top of the head, which illuminates the sights better. Lighting conditions and shadows can be tricky, though, so the "FBI technique" where you hold the light at arms' length is an excellent complement to a jaw/neck/head index when you can't see what you need to see.

Two-handed techniques have limited usefulness in my opinion. If you already use some kind of Weaver stance to shoot or you're shooting around cover on your firing side, then the Harries Technique can work pretty well if you know how to do it correctly (and the details are not obvious). If you don't shoot that way normally . . . meh.

Finally, when it comes time to actually shoot, a weapon mounted light reigns supreme. Having both hands on the gun in your normal firing grip is the best case scenario and only a WML allows that. Keep in mind that although you can use a WML to illuminate without pointing your muzzle where you don't want it pointed, it's not intuitive and it's not an ideal situation. If you have a WML, you still need to carry and be able to use a handheld light.

 

[WanderingSol07]

Trapper Jim, please explain your comments, why are you not a fan? What does "Surefire ED2 and shooting skills night or day rain or shine" mean? I don't understand your shorthand. I would surely think shooting and having a small flash is preferable to having an incredibly bright and large ball of light at night.

Not a fan of WML. Surefire ED2 and shooting skills night or day rain or shine. Ammo unimportant except for the marketing majors that push them. I know this will generate hate mail but you asked....just my opinion.

 

[Bigtanker]

With the selection of lights out there, you just need to spend a little time finding the one that works best for you. I don't remember the brand but I had one that I couldn't thumb the tail switch either. I ended up taking a Dremel to it. It's regulated to junk drawer use now. My current EDC is a Fenix.

I have used my light and pistol in complete darkness to save a life (a chicken,The racoon didn't fare well). Luckily I had time to find out which position the light works best for the sights and target. As Rhino mentioned, holding the light at my temple worked great.

Before this coon attack, I had never even thought about where to hold the light. Now it's something I think about on a regular basis.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Trapper Jim, please explain your comments, why are you not a fan? What does "Surefire ED2 and shooting skills night or day rain or shine" mean? I don't understand your shorthand. I would surely think shooting and having a small flash is preferable to having an incredibly bright and large ball of light at night.

It is too lengthy and involved to lay out all my reasons for not being a fan of WML on this forum, however, I would be glad to meet with you and discuss and demonstrate. Please PM me if you are interested. "Surefire ED2 and shooting skills night or day rain or shine" mean? Simply that most would be better off mastering shooting ability before worrying about muzzle fireballs. Most individuals have only so much room for mind reference in any situation let alone when your adrenaline level peaks and you actually are being shot at so worrying about muzzle flash, Perry Mason, high capacity, trick triggers, Barking Dawg Ammo, Lasers, Batteries for your Optics, spotlights, spring loaded kydex, etc, more than likely will get you kilt anyway. Please do not take this wrong as many of these things have a place but most are ability driven accessories. Also, many other posts offer some theories on WML as well.

 

[Coach]

There are many different flashlight techniques. Some that work well for iron sights don't work as well if you have an optic on your gun. That is something to make sure you know ahead of time.

 

[jkdbjj]

Sounds like the class made you identify some issues, and think. That is a successful class!

I try to carry both a WML and a handheld flashlight. There are times where places and things need to be seen that don't need a gun pointed at them. Flip-side is, watch the best pro shooters in the world---whenever they can shoot a stage with both hands on the pistol, they do. If they can't be as accurate and fast with a pistol one-handed, that should tell us all something.

My recommendation is find a safe place to shoot at night and play with different lights, different scenarios, and see what works for you. Sometimes the darkness makes us see problems and things that we are not aware of during daylight---such as going through doors that you have to unlock with a key while holding a pistol and a flashlight that is not mounted on your pistol...or shooting at night in cold weather after running and breathing hard...things can fog up for a second or two. Go play and learn. There is no "way" that will work for everyone, or anyone all the time.