CCW Insurance Discussion

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  • Trapper Jim

    Master
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    22   0   0
    Dec 18, 2012
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    Arcadia
    I thought a good fact finding session on CCW Insurance Merchants might be in order. Let's start out by asking if any INGOERS have any first hand experience with claim activity with USCCA, CCW Safe, NRA Carry Guard or ACLDN?
     

    Vigilant

    Grandmaster
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    21   0   0
    Jul 12, 2008
    11,659
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    Plainfield
    The OP has a penchant for using the words “Death Merchants”, I wonder if a company that pays your bills for potentially killing someone could be considered a “Death Merchants”?
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
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    Oct 3, 2012
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    I would like to hear BBI chime in on this one.

    I can't recommend a specific product, but I'd be comfortable laying out some questions/guidelines I'd use in considering one.

    Mandatory questions:

    1) Do they pay for your defense up front? If it's a reimbursement after the fact, especially if it's tangent on a win, I'd pass.

    2) Will they pay for expert witnesses? Do they have an existing association with known and respected experts?

    3) Will they assist with both criminal and civil cases? For you alone or you and your immediate family/household?

    4) Will they cover defense of others (aka Good Samaritan) or strictly self defense?

    5) Do they have their own network of attorneys? If so, are they vetted and do they have experience with self-defense cases? This is a big deal, as someone who's used to defending people who are factually guilty (most trials) may not approach an affirmative defense case properly. In short, they are using to arguing "he didn't do it" instead of "he did it, but it's ok he did) and need to be able to make that second one in a justified shooting case.

    6) Are there caps, and if so what are they?

    7) Are they reachable 24/7 and do they have a response team that will physically come if needed?

    8) Is the issuer/underwriter financially stable (as in, can they actually pay claims) and is there a secondary underwriter should they fail while you're on the hook?

    Bonus questions:

    *Do they have their own investigators? Will they do things like canvas the neighborhood for witnesses that didn't/wouldn't talk to the police?

    *Do they work with any existing plans you have that might cover portions of your liability? FOP membership, home owner's/umbrella policy for accidental shootings, etc.

    I think with those questions you can at least make an informed decision on if any given plan is worth it.

    Massad Ayoob didn't have a plan he recommended last time I spoke with him, I can ask if there's one he recommends these days though.

    *Edit*
    Mas says he works with ACLDN so "any recommendations I make would seem biased". I noted Tom Givens is also on the same advisory board. I think both of those guys' opinions are well worth listening to.
     
    Last edited:

    Trapper Jim

    Master
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    22   0   0
    Dec 18, 2012
    2,676
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    Arcadia
    I can't recommend a specific product, but I'd be comfortable laying out some questions/guidelines I'd use in considering one.

    Mandatory questions:

    1) Do they pay for your defense up front? If it's a reimbursement after the fact, especially if it's tangent on a win, I'd pass.

    2) Will they pay for expert witnesses? Do they have an existing association with known and respected experts?

    3) Will they assist with both criminal and civil cases? For you alone or you and your immediate family/household?

    4) Will they cover defense of others (aka Good Samaritan) or strictly self defense?

    5) Do they have their own network of attorneys? If so, are they vetted and do they have experience with self-defense cases? This is a big deal, as someone who's used to defending people who are factually guilty (most trials) may not approach an affirmative defense case properly. In short, they are using to arguing "he didn't do it" instead of "he did it, but it's ok he did) and need to be able to make that second one in a justified shooting case.

    6) Are there caps, and if so what are they?

    7) Are they reachable 24/7 and do they have a response team that will physically come if needed?

    8) Is the issuer/underwriter financially stable (as in, can they actually pay claims) and is there a secondary underwriter should they fail while you're on the hook?

    Bonus questions:

    *Do they have their own investigators? Will they do things like canvas the neighborhood for witnesses that didn't/wouldn't talk to the police?

    *Do they work with any existing plans you have that might cover portions of your liability? FOP membership, home owner's/umbrella policy for accidental shootings, etc.

    I think with those questions you can at least make an informed decision on if any given plan is worth it.

    Massad Ayoob didn't have a plan he recommended last time I spoke with him, I can ask if there's one he recommends these days though.

    In reading the fine print in their user agreements I find clauses like, we can, even retroactively, cancel your policy for a list of things, one being criminal offenses. My question would be if your defense required you to break any laws Federal, State or local or the Grand Jury does not go well, what happens?
     

    Cameramonkey

    www.thechosen.tv
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    35   0   0
    May 12, 2013
    31,685
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    Camby area
    In reading the fine print in their user agreements I find clauses like, we can, even retroactively, cancel your policy for a list of things, one being criminal offenses. My question would be if your defense required you to break any laws Federal, State or local or the Grand Jury does not go well, what happens?


    Finding somebody who pays up front is going to be tricky, because every one I've seen (granted I havent dug very deep) only covers you if you are innocent. That requires a not guilty verdict to validate the claim, so they cant pay until that comes down. Because what happens if they pay up front and then you are found guilty of a crime? How do they get their money back? Garnish your pennies per hour income working in the prison laundry?
     

    Vigilant

    Grandmaster
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    21   0   0
    Jul 12, 2008
    11,659
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    Plainfield
    Finding somebody who pays up front is going to be tricky, because every one I've seen (granted I havent dug very deep) only covers you if you are innocent. That requires a not guilty verdict to validate the claim, so they cant pay until that comes down. Because what happens if they pay up front and then you are found guilty of a crime? How do they get their money back? Garnish your pennies per hour income working in the prison laundry?
    USCCA at the very least will post bond, and provide a retainer for your attorney of choice upfront.
     

    Bigtanker

    Cuddles
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Aug 21, 2012
    21,688
    151
    Osceola
    Finding somebody who pays up front is going to be tricky, because every one I've seen (granted I havent dug very deep) only covers you if you are innocent. That requires a not guilty verdict to validate the claim, so they cant pay until that comes down. Because what happens if they pay up front and then you are found guilty of a crime? How do they get their money back? Garnish your pennies per hour income working in the prison laundry?

    From what I've heard the ACLDN say, as long as they think you acted in a legal matter, they will cover you. And iirc, they pay upfront.
     

    bwframe

    Loneranger
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    93   0   0
    Feb 11, 2008
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    Btown Rural
    9cp.gif
     

    cosermann

    Grandmaster
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    14   0   0
    Aug 15, 2008
    8,371
    113
    ... Mas says he works with ACLDN so "any recommendations I make would seem biased". I noted Tom Givens is also on the same advisory board. I think both of those guys' opinions are well worth listening to.

    Mas and Tom being on ACLDN's advisory board are one reason I'm currently with them.
    That and they were running a discount during the NRA annual meeting.
    And you get a book and some DVDs (and online content) - which is something of value, even if you never have a "claim."

    :twocents: YMMV.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
    25,890
    113
    In reading the fine print in their user agreements I find clauses like, we can, even retroactively, cancel your policy for a list of things, one being criminal offenses. My question would be if your defense required you to break any laws Federal, State or local or the Grand Jury does not go well, what happens?

    Good question and why due diligence on the consumer's part is going to be so important. Also a reason I don't feel comfortable recommending any given product. I know and trust Mas and know Givens by reputation, so that carries some weight with me if I were to be shopping for myself but I don't think I know enough about potential loopholes and fine print to give a first hand opinion on buy this/don't buy this for any of them.
     

    Brad69

    Grandmaster
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    0   0   0
    Jul 16, 2016
    5,104
    77
    Perry county
    I use CCW safe defender plan for retired military and LEO (the only insurer that has actually went to trial)


    • Access to our 24-hour emergency hotline
    • Critical Response Team on site
    • $500,000 bail coverage
    • Vetting of Attorneys by National Trial Counsel
    • Unlimited Attorney fees covered up front
    • Unlimited Investigators covered up front
    • Unlimited Expert Witnesses covered up front
    • All trial fees covered up front
    • Firearm Replacement during trial
    • Spouse and children under 18 covered in home only
    • Up to $250 a day work loss while in criminal or civil trial
    • up to 10 sessions (up to $1,500) for a licensed counselor
    • up to $3k for crime scene clean-up home*
    • Appeals and expungements covered
     
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