"Over-penetration" Don't even worry about it.

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  • daddyusmaximus

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 98.8%
    82   1   0
    Aug 21, 2013
    8,508
    113
    Remington
    Who here has worried about "over-penetration" when selecting a Self Defense / Home Defense round? (this goes for pistol, shotgun, or rifle)
    My view on ammo has always been more along the lines of what the ammo does to the target itself.

    Bonded, HP, SP, FMJ, whatever... I simply care that it stops the threat, drops the game animal, hits the target... whatever the task.
    In defensive ammo, stopping the threat is number 1 to the point that all else (except hitting the target in the first place) doesn't matter.

    I know that "over-penetration" is a thing that a hell of a lot of people tend to worry about. I also know that "knowing your target, and what's behind it" is one of the biggies...

    HOWEVER, if I ever get myself into a defensive situation, I'm talking about a situation where I'm scared because my life, or the lives of those I love are in danger to the point that I feel I need to use deadly force to stop the threat... I'm NOT gonna worry about "over-penetration".

    Not one single bit.


    Now, keep in mind that the only time I've ever shot at people was when I was deployed to war, but in that time, I don't recall ever being worried about "over-penetration" hitting civilians, or even my own guys. Maybe I was a bad soldier, but I was scared, and mad all at once. I just shot at the bad guys shooting at us. However, I lived through it. I never hit any of my own guys, nor they I.


    A defensive situation here in the USA could be a completely different matter.


    First off, it has a way less likely chance of it ever happening at all. Most of us will not have to use our weapons in defense. (Thank God)


    Second, if it does, for me to worry about "over-penetration" that would mean some innocent person would have to be directly in line

    with me...
    and the bad guy...
    at that exact second...
    the round would have to pass through the bad guy...
    any barriers between him, and the innocent person...
    then hit that person.

    That's a lot of things to stack up all at once. I ain't got time to worry about all that. I do feel for any innocents that may be affected, but any events that unfold as a result of me being attacked were set in motion by my attacker... who is then legally responsible for the outcome of him forcing me to defend myself.


    I'd just be some guy who's scared that I'm in danger, mad I was attacked, and trying to figure out how to stay alive, and keep my own family alive...


    My thoughts are quite simply that "over-penetration" is over thought.


    I would be much more worried about SHOTS MISSED... Those are the dangerous ones.


    Things happen fast. Bad guys don't stand still for you to shoot at. Plus they will be shooting at you, or attacking you in some way. Pretty good chance it could be dark when all this goes down too. You will surely have been surprised, and be reacting, rather than shooting calmly on a firing range. You will be angry, and scared, maybe even groggy from having just been awoken in the middle of the night.


    You will miss more than you hit, and only the hits count. Remember the news stories of police officers who fire 21 rounds at a suspect, then the report says the suspect was hit twice? The real world is a messy, imperfect place.


    I probably fired close to a thousand rounds on my last combat deployment... (over the course of a year) I only got 6 bad guys.


    My thoughts are, Don't worry about "over-penetration" Just get the best ammo you can, and practice putting it where it needs to go.

    What say INGO? You people freak out about the lawyer attached to each bullet?

    If so, the ones that MISS are the most dangerous.
     

    Benp

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    12   0   0
    Mar 19, 2017
    7,361
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    Avon
    I think if someone is coming at you with the intent to harm you then you don't have time to think about what is on the other side of the wall that is behind the bad guy. Stopping the threat and surviving is the objective. I'm using 9mm HP so as long as I hit the target then the bullets should stay in the target.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
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    North of Notre Dame.
    I say there is a lot wrong there but I don't have time to cover it all on my phone. I will say you sum it up well when you say use the best ammo you can find. If you do that, overpenetration will not be much of a concern since the current best self defense ammo doesn't tend to over penetrate.
     

    Birds Away

    ex CZ afficionado.
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    18   0   0
    Aug 29, 2011
    76,248
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    Monticello
    People who seriously consider such an event will more than likely factor in many, many different things when deciding upon a self defense weapon and the ammunition for it. For me, over penetration was one of those things. It wasn't an overriding consideration but it wasn't irrelevant either. But, to say that you aren't going to stop during a self defense situation and consider over penetration is kind of silly. I would hope that you aren't going to stop and think about any of the dozens of decisions you've undoubtedly made about your gear and training prior to such an event. Everyone accumulates information and then makes decision as best they can. I've found that this is a never ending process for me. I don't spend a lot of time on it as most of the questions have been answered to my satisfaction, but the quest for knowledge and refinement never truly ends. If you choose to discount over penetration then I say God Bless and good luck to you, sir. For me, and possibly others, it is one of many small parts in the big picture.
     

    VulpesForge

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Jan 14, 2020
    232
    43
    Nowhere
    My general opinion is that I tend to carry 10mm bullets that are proven to dump all energy into the target, which is why I also like 9mm HST. 135gr-165gr hp in 10mm generally doesn't over penetrate in human sized mediums that have been tested frequently. That being said, I don't think you're generally going to have to draw in a crowded area (less likely to be robbed at the 7-11 than a dark alley alone), and even if you do the over penetration from a good hollow point will likely only cause lighter (flesh) wounds. The energy transfer into the primary target is the important factor. Unless you're carrying hard cast lead or lehigh phillips heads it really shouldn't be a concern. Judicious marksmanship and bullet choice come into play when you're really getting into it, but overall after a common duty caliber HP goes through someone it really isn't going to have the energy to penetrate even a heavy winter jacket.
     

    VulpesForge

    Marksman
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    9   0   0
    Jan 14, 2020
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    Nowhere
    People who seriously consider such an event will more than likely factor in many, many different things when deciding upon a self defense weapon and the ammunition for it. For me, over penetration was one of those things. It wasn't an overriding consideration but it wasn't irrelevant either. But, to say that you aren't going to stop during a self defense situation and consider over penetration is kind of silly. I would hope that you aren't going to stop and think about any of the dozens of decisions you've undoubtedly made about your gear and training prior to such an event. Everyone accumulates information and then makes decision as best they can. I've found that this is a never ending process for me. I don't spend a lot of time on it as most of the questions have been answered to my satisfaction, but the quest for knowledge and refinement never truly ends. If you choose to discount over penetration then I say God Bless and good luck to you, sir. For me, and possibly others, it is one of many small parts in the big picture.

    Well said.
     

    HKUSP

    Sharpshooter
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    11   0   0
    Dec 5, 2015
    496
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    Danville, IN
    I think there's a world of variables that everyone needs to think about in advance depending on their particular situation. Note I said "think" not "worry".

    My own situation? I have rifles and shotguns, but none of them are in frontline service because I live in an apartment building and I get along with my neighbors. From what I've seen of the construction quality a round from either would have little trouble getting into my neighbor's unit. A 9mm with a light on it is plenty for my situation.

    I still believe that a 9mm could get through those walls, but if I do my part it won't be much of an issue. I also believe that it will have shed enough energy by the time it does so it will be much less likely to harm an innocent person.
    If I lived in a house or behind bricks, my attitude may be quite different.

    In public? Most of the time if you gear check me you'll find a Makarov. I decided that accuracy beats horsepower in most of these cases.

    I went with what's right for me, which is the advice I would give to anyone.
     

    Ark

    Grandmaster
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    25   0   0
    Feb 18, 2017
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    Indy
    There are some people on the internet who seriously obsess about overpenetration and the quest to find the perfect magic bullet that will deliver good effect on your intended target but poof into dust and hold harmless anything you don't intend to shoot. Textbook seeking a hardware solution to a software problem. :rolleyes:

    All bullets penetrate things. It's what they're for. The solution is don't miss, don't fire extraneous rounds, and use your intended target as a backstop.
     

    daddyusmaximus

    Grandmaster
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    82   1   0
    Aug 21, 2013
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    Remington
    ​Anyone who says that they give NO consideration to the possibility of overpenetration has no business carrying a gun.

    True, and that's not what I'm saying, just that I don't over do the worry about it. I select my rounds based on their ability to stop the threat. Good this is that most good defensive rounds tend not to "over penetrate" anyhow, so I don't stress out over it. If they do happen to punch through, sorry, not my intention, but they have to go in deep enough to hit the vitals, and stop the threat, so... I'm not gonna select a weak round.
     

    EricG

    Sharpshooter
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    Nov 19, 2013
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    NWI
    We mitigate the risk by managing what's beyond our target as best we can. Bullet deflecting off of bone is a thing too.

    Bullets do some pretty interesting things. Like enter one part horizontally and exits another part in a vertical trajectory.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
     

    patience0830

    .22 magician
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    28   1   0
    Nov 3, 2008
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    Not far from the tree
    ​Anyone who says that they give NO consideration to the possibility of overpenetration has no business carrying a gun.

    I live 1800 feet off the county road in the middle of 60 acres and an AR with 50gr varmint bullets and an 870 with 00 buck every other shell with foster slugs as the even shells. Just me and the wife and I'm not worried in the least about over penetration. I'm hoping the bad guys come in single file.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
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    North of Notre Dame.
    I live 1800 feet off the county road in the middle of 60 acres and an AR with 50gr varmint bullets and an 870 with 00 buck every other shell with foster slugs as the even shells. Just me and the wife and I'm not worried in the least about over penetration. I'm hoping the bad guys come in single file.

    Is that the only place you will ever have a gun handy to defend yourself? Do you not carry in public? If not, then maybe you are right.
     

    Leadeye

    Grandmaster
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    Jan 19, 2009
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    When I lived in an apartment I kept a shotgun loaded with #6 at the ready. Strangely, now that I live in the woods, I still rely on a shotgun. A 10 gauge with 18 00 buck is very decisive at any distance I can see in the dark.
     

    GIJEW

    Master
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    8   0   0
    Mar 14, 2009
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    True, and that's not what I'm saying, just that I don't over do the worry about it. I select my rounds based on their ability to stop the threat. Good this is that most good defensive rounds tend not to "over penetrate" anyhow, so I don't stress out over it. If they do happen to punch through, sorry, not my intention, but they have to go in deep enough to hit the vitals, and stop the threat, so... I'm not gonna select a weak round.
    You're first post DID give the impression that you don't give any consideration to overpenetration. I agree with your 2nd post...and yes, missed shots are a bigger concern than overpenetration.
     

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