Carmel Farmer's Market "No Firearms" signs

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  • PewPew1776

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    Jul 7, 2020
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    Cornopolis
    Hello,

    I noticed that the Carmel Farmer's Market has posted signs to the effect of "No firearms allowed" around the perimeter of the event.
    This is an open to the public event that occurs every Saturday in a public location just south of the Palladium.

    It is my understanding, that Indiana forbids carrying of weapons in very few places, and that there is a fairly strong preemption of local ordinances by the state.

    Can anyone chime in as to the legality of those signs and/or the local city preventing firearms from being carried into what is essentially a public square?

    Thank you, and hello, this is my first post on the forums - I hope I posted in the correct section!
     

    MCgrease08

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    Who owns the property where the market is held? If it's private property then they can post signs. If the City owns it then it might be a different story with preemption coming into play.
     

    indysims

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    Interested in the legality of this as well. I frequent the market in normal times. My gut says the signs have no force of law.
    The event takes place on "Center Green" which is the courtyard if you will of the Carmel City Center, almost for sure public property.
     

    PewPew1776

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    Who owns the property where the market is held? If it's private property then they can post signs. If the City owns it then it might be a different story with preemption coming into play.

    According to the tax records, this is the owner:

    City of Carmel Redevelopment Authority
    30 W Main St Ste 220
    Carmel, IN 46032

    On the city's website, the "Redevelopment Authority" is described as the following:

    The Redevelopment Authority was formed by ordinance of the Common Council of the City in 1997 as a separate body corporate and politic and an instrumentality of the City. The primary purpose of the Redevelopment Authority is to finance projects for lease to the Carmel Redevelopment Commission. The Redevelopment Authority is governed by a three-member board of directors, all of whom are appointed by the Mayor for three-year terms.
    From: https://www.carmel.in.gov/our-government/boards-commissions/carmel-redevelopment-authority
     

    indysims

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    Well, I'm not a lawyer, but that seems like public property... but I could also see that as a loophole that it's not???
    We need a Guy Relford ruling



    According to the tax records, this is the owner:

    City of Carmel Redevelopment Authority
    30 W Main St Ste 220
    Carmel, IN 46032

    On the city's website, the "Redevelopment Authority" is described as the following:
     

    T.Lex

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    Mostly still this:
    Interesting legal question: since it is a public building, they may not be able to ban firearms.

    Now, there's stickers on the doors, and a relatively complicated ownership issue (the CRC built it and pays for it, but I believe it is deeded to a trust for the benefit of the CRC), so it is an open question.

    The basic issue is that the mayor is not a gun-guy and doesn't like the idea of guns in his theater.


    Whether the ownership entities can ban actual carrying is an open question. Whether the relevant ownership entities can put up stickers but not actually enforce anything is a different question. A third question is whether the relevant entities can ask a business invitee (or even a ticketed guest) to leave the premises if they carry, if it isn't the actual city doing the asking.
     

    T.Lex

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    Quick clarification: I'm pretty sure the Farmers' Market is a private entity (501(c)(3) most likely), so it can post signs regarding the areas that it might "lease" from the City.
     

    PewPew1776

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    Jul 7, 2020
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    Quick clarification: I'm pretty sure the Farmers' Market is a private entity (501(c)(3) most likely), so it can post signs regarding the areas that it might "lease" from the City.

    That's probably it. I looked them up on the Secretary's of State website, and they're registered under CARMEL FARMERS MARKET, INC., a "Domestic Nonprofit Corporation".

    Still sounds like BS, since I believe they're funded from taxpayer's money, but it would explain how they'd get away with it.

    So basically, it sounds like they might "ask you to leave", but it's not really "against the law" to carry there.
     

    T.Lex

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    That's probably it. I looked them up on the Secretary's of State website, and they're registered under CARMEL FARMERS MARKET, INC., a "Domestic Nonprofit Corporation".

    Still sounds like BS, since I believe they're funded from taxpayer's money, but it would explain how they'd get away with it.

    So basically, it sounds like they might "ask you to leave", but it's not really "against the law" to carry there.

    I'm not sure how much they're funded by the City, but their 990 should be available online. I think they do get a grant from the City every year, but also charge vendors for the space. Any "lease" from the City is probably a nominal amount, but that should be publicly available, too.
     

    indysims

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    I live there. I enjoy it. Great public amenities for families and recreation. It's not perfect, no place is.
     

    T.Lex

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    I've heard of Carmel. Little of what I've heard has been positive. I have no reason to go there.

    Just respond, "Politely decline" on the invitation and send it back through the mail, then we'll know not to set a place for you.

    Thanks!
     

    Thor

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    Could be anywhere
    If you are seen carrying by someone who cares they can ask you to leave. If you do not leave it is trespassing (if on private property). Conceal and carry on.
     

    Tactically Fat

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    If you are seen carrying by someone who cares they can ask you to leave. If you do not leave it is trespassing (if on private property). Conceal and carry on.

    Not exactly true.

    Must be an "agent" of the entity who has leased the space.
     

    cosermann

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    So, is this/could this be a potential "loophole" for municipalities to implement backdoor gun control?

    In other words, if a municipality, can simply take an otherwise public space, and spin it off into an "authority" or a "corporation" etc., and then it magically becomes "private property" (I'd argue that while it technically may be, it actually is not), then this could be done for parks and a while host of other public property. Bingo, they've done an end-run around preemption.
     

    T.Lex

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    So, is this/could this be a potential "loophole" for municipalities to implement backdoor gun control?

    In other words, if a municipality, can simply take an otherwise public space, and spin it off into an "authority" or a "corporation" etc., and then it magically becomes "private property" (I'd argue that while it technically may be, it actually is not), then this could be done for parks and a while host of other public property. Bingo, they've done an end-run around preemption.

    Yes, probably.

    In Carmel's case, though, it appears to be a consequence of very complicated/sophisticated financing and ownership arrangements that were in place (or in process) before pre-emption went into effect. Turns out, having a private entity own/operate a property with .gov subsidies can be lucrative for alot of people.

    It isn't really a loophole, though, but built into the statute as an exception for entities that lease .gov-owned property. Certain sports franchises in Indy have strong lobbyists and they want to restrict gun possession in the places they play. The exception just applies to lots of other events.
     

    gregkl

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    Not exactly the same issue but here in Bloomington, the locals wanted to have a vendor removed from our farmers market because allegedly, they have ties to a white supremacy group.

    The mayor said that it is a public market and according to the First Amendment, they can't forbid them from coming and selling their produce.

    It has caused a huge issue which is still going on and has basically killed the market. There was a lot of talk about taking the market private so they could oust the vendor.

    So, wouldn't the same apply to firearms restrictions?
     
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