Help keep me out of the federal pen

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  • ACC

    Master
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    133   0   1
    Mar 7, 2012
    2,042
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    N. Side of Indy
    OK....I am one of the guys that bought a $99 silencer just before 41P went into effect. Over a year later, my paperwork finally came in.

    So I go to my FFL on Saturday to pick it up. He gets it out of the safe, brings it over, I open it up and think...WOW...this suppressor is super light! So I take off the end cap and.....

    NO BAFFLES!!! Just an empty can with end caps. I am shocked.

    So...I finally get in touch with the manufacturer today and speak with one of the guys there. He says...."hahah...I was wondering when we might get one of these calls. I guess it is a year later and you are the first. We were so slammed with orders we knew we screwed up and sent out a few cans without any baffles. Sorry, man."

    So...I don't know if that makes me feel any better but I ask...so what are you going to do about it?

    He says "well...we can just send you out the baffles if you want. But for your trouble, if you send the can back to us, I will actually replace it with one of our newer versions which I think is a much better can. Just send yours in and I will send you back the updated one with the same serial number." I said...OK...let me get back to you on this.

    I have so many questions.

    1. Can he really just send me out a newer version of the can with the same serial number? I kinda think that is a BIG no no.

    2. The new version of their suppressor has a different name than the one I have, so if he did replace it, even with a unit that had the same serial number, the names would not be the same so my paperwork would not match and I think that is a BIG no no.

    3. If I pass on his offer to send the new version and just want baffles for the one I have (the safest route I think), can he really just mail me out the baffles for the one I have? Or do I need to send the can back to them and have them install the baffles?

    Seriously here....I have never been in this position before, my goggle fu has not turned up any definitive answers and I DEFINITELY want to keep in line with the law and keep myself out of the pen.

    Please help.
     

    Family man

    Shooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 21, 2017
    93
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    Southern
    He can not in any way destroy your cans tube and replace it with a new and the same ser#. Period. That will get him time in club fed. Cans can be worked on baffel strikes, upgraded baffles, but must use the same tube. Thats what has the # on it. Im not sure if you can recieve baffels alone in the mail.
    I would ask for upgraded baffels in the same tube and you will be ok.
     

    Rookie

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    14   0   0
    Sep 22, 2008
    18,155
    113
    Kokomo
    It depends on whatever has the serial number. For example, huntertown has the serial number on the tube. If the tube is destroyed, so is the suppressor. CF gunworks has the serial number on a small piece that screws onto the can and the gun. The tube can be replaced, but not the end piece.
     

    moose97

    Plinker
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    1   0   0
    Aug 21, 2015
    63
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    Hoagland
    If I were in your position, I would be contacting a lawyer - Marc Halata, specifically. They - your suppressor manufacturer - needs to make it right, in every legal way. And you need someone who will make sure all the i's are dotted & t's are crossed to the BATFE's satisfaction.
     

    ljk

    Master
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    30   0   0
    May 21, 2013
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    send it back to mfg via RMA and they can "fix it" as a factory defect, then send it back to you.

    End of the story.
     

    Expat

    Pdub
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    23   0   0
    Feb 27, 2010
    108,735
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    Michiana
    send it back to mfg via RMA and they can "fix it" as a factory defect, then send it back to you.

    End of the story.
    There was someone a few months ago that had to send a stripped lower back to the maker. They destroyed it and sent him a new one with the same serial number. That way he did not have to do another 4473. How would this be any different?
     

    cordex

    Expert
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    5   0   0
    Jun 24, 2008
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    I don't know exactly what the manufacturer means when they say upgrade your silencer to a new model (maybe it involves just new end caps and baffles?), but as others have mentioned they are not supposed to replace the "outer tube" with a new one. See below. Q4 also applies.
    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-appendix-b/download

    Q2: May a Federal firearms licensee repair a silencer by replacing worn or damaged components?
    A: A person who is licensed under the Gun Control Act (GCA) to manufacture firearms and who has paid the special (occupational) tax to manufacture National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms may replace a component part or parts of a silencer. Repairs may not be done if they result in removal, obliteration, or alteration of the serial number, as this would violate 18 U.S.C. § 922(k). If a silencer part bearing the serial number, other than the outer tube, must be replaced, the new part must be marked with the same serial number as the replacement part.
    The term "repair" does not include replacement of the outer tube of the silencer. The outer tube is the largest single part of the silencer, the main structural component of the silencer, and is the part to which all other component parts are attached. The replacement of the outer tube is so significant an event that it amounts to the "making" of a new silencer. As such, the new silencer must be marked, registered and transferred in accordance with the NFA and GCA.
    In the event that identical replacement parts for a silencer are not available, new and different component parts may be used as long as the silencer retains the same dimensions and caliber. In addition, the repair may result in a minimal reduction in the length of the outer tube due to rethreading, but repair may not increase the length of the outer tube. Increasing the length of the outer tube significantly affects the performance of the silencer and results in the "making" of a new silencer. As stated above, a new silencer must be marked, registered and transferred in accordance with the NFA and GCA. Reducing the length of the tube by a minimal amount in order to repair a silencer is often necessary to replace damaged end caps, as the tube must be rethreaded. Such minimal reduction of the length of the tube uses all of the original parts, does not significantly affect performance of the silencer, and may be done as part of a repair process without making a new silencer.
    Persons other than qualified manufacturers may repair silencers, but replacement parts are "silencers" as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(24) that must be registered and transferred in accordance with the NFA and GCA.
     

    M67

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    23   0   0
    Jan 15, 2011
    6,181
    63
    Southernish Indiana
    There was someone a few months ago that had to send a stripped lower back to the maker. They destroyed it and sent him a new one with the same serial number. That way he did not have to do another 4473. How would this be any different?

    Lower is a lower and an NFA item is a NFA item.

    Same reason why you can't send in a full auto lower that's 40 years old and cracked to get replaced with the same lower with the same serial number.

    Just the way things are with NFA regulated items
     

    ACC

    Master
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    133   0   1
    Mar 7, 2012
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    N. Side of Indy
    UPDATE: I decided to go ahead and call the NFA division of the ATF to get their take on it. They were very cool and helpful. They stated unequivocally that the manufacturer CANNOT replace the suppressor with a newer version with the same serial number. No way, now how. Additionally, they advised me to NOT have the manufacturer send me the baffles as there might be some legal exposure for both of us by doing so. They stated the best way to remedy this situation was to send the can back to the manufacturer (on a Form 5...but that form is not required) and have the manufacturer install the baffles as originally intended and then have them send the suppressor back to me. They said this way I will be on solid legal ground.

    I sure am glad my BS detector went off when the manufacturer offered to send me the updated version of their .22 can. Taking him up on that offer would have given me significant legal exposure. Maybe they need to take some of my $99 and get some better legal/professional advice.
     

    Beowulf

    Master
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    66   0   0
    Mar 21, 2012
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    Yikes, that is pretty concerning. That SOT is cruising for a loss of license at best and a spell in Fed lockup at worst.

    I guess they better hope the HPA passes before they doing something really stupid and the Feds catch them at it.
     

    Tski

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 17, 2017
    3
    1
    evansville
    I have alway found the ATF to be polite and professional group of people. It never hurts to ask about NFA rules if something does not seem right. Rather safe than sorry. I am glad you found a solution that works for you. It is a bummer you will have to wait a little longer before you can try the can out. Good luck
    tski
     

    ljk

    Master
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    30   0   0
    May 21, 2013
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    UPDATE: I decided to go ahead and call the NFA division of the ATF to get their take on it. They were very cool and helpful. They stated unequivocally that the manufacturer CANNOT replace the suppressor with a newer version with the same serial number. No way, now how. Additionally, they advised me to NOT have the manufacturer send me the baffles as there might be some legal exposure for both of us by doing so. They stated the best way to remedy this situation was to send the can back to the manufacturer (on a Form 5...but that form is not required) and have the manufacturer install the baffles as originally intended and then have them send the suppressor back to me. They said this way I will be on solid legal ground.

    I sure am glad my BS detector went off when the manufacturer offered to send me the updated version of their .22 can. Taking him up on that offer would have given me significant legal exposure. Maybe they need to take some of my $99 and get some better legal/professional advice.

    Correct, each baffle is considered an NFA firearm. For example, if you had a baffle strike in a serviceable suppressor, nothing else, just a baffle, even a blind monkey can take it apart, replace the baffle with a new one.

    No, you can't do that yourself unless you are an 07/02 SOT. Nor you can have a spare baffle.
     

    tbhausen

    Master
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    83   0   0
    Feb 12, 2010
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    The moral of the story is that you don't get what you don't pay for. Someday, after all this BS settles down, you might be able to get a decent suppressor for $99. That day hasn't come yet.
     

    ACC

    Master
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    133   0   1
    Mar 7, 2012
    2,042
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    N. Side of Indy
    UPDATE #2: Talked with the manufacturer again and told them I was not comfortable swapping my can for their new version and told him of my conversation with NFA @ ATF. He said he thought that sounded right and that he would happily just provide the missing baffles. Actually, for the headache, he is going to upgrade me to stainless steel baffles AND provide me with a 50% of coupon for any other of their suppressors! All in all (assuming I get the can back with the SS baffles in a timely manner) I am happy with the resolution.
     

    ACC

    Master
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    133   0   1
    Mar 7, 2012
    2,042
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    N. Side of Indy
    You guys are not going to believe this ***

    Sent my suppressor back to Rebel Silencers for the to install the baffles they failed to provide when it was sent to my FFL. Low and behold....my suppressor is STOLEN out of the Ft. Worth Fed Ex hub. STOLEN. Even the director fo that hub admitted they have had some problems with electronics and firearms related packages going missing.

    What I have learned from the ATF is that I am basically screwed. I can get my money back from Fed Ex because I insured the package for $300. However, the ATF does not make any special accommodations for getting a new tax stamp expedited. I have to file all new forms and get back in line.

    I called Rebel to let them know what had happened and they, because they are the reason I had to send it back in the first place, going to cover the cost and tax stamp fee for a new can. But I will be waiting another year before I get it.

    ****smoke coming out of my ears****
     

    T.Lex

    Grandmaster
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    15   0   0
    Mar 30, 2011
    25,859
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    Oh snap.

    That's messed up. (BTW, what happens if they miraculously find your stolen suppressor while you're waiting?)

    In my 30 or so years as an adult, I soundly believe that some transactions are snakebit. That is, the strangest, most unpredictable things tend to happen within the same interaction.

    My friend, this transaction is snakebit.

    That doesn't mean you don't proceed. It just means that you should have a very low expectation about this going smoothly.
     

    DanVoils

    Master
    Emeritus
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    43   0   0
    Feb 20, 2010
    3,098
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    .
    You guys are not going to believe this ***

    Sent my suppressor back to Rebel Silencers for the to install the baffles they failed to provide when it was sent to my FFL. Low and behold....my suppressor is STOLEN out of the Ft. Worth Fed Ex hub. STOLEN. Even the director fo that hub admitted they have had some problems with electronics and firearms related packages going missing.

    What I have learned from the ATF is that I am basically screwed. I can get my money back from Fed Ex because I insured the package for $300. However, the ATF does not make any special accommodations for getting a new tax stamp expedited. I have to file all new forms and get back in line.

    I called Rebel to let them know what had happened and they, because they are the reason I had to send it back in the first place, going to cover the cost and tax stamp fee for a new can. But I will be waiting another year before I get it.

    ****smoke coming out of my ears****

    That is ****ed up on so many levels. It's great that Rebel is covering it but it sucks that the ATF can't expedite.
     
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