An OAL question...

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  • JJFII

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    So I read that the ATF advised how to measure OAL is to lay the firearm down mark the end of the barrel without any permanently attached muzzle device and with any length adjusting stock / brace at its full point.

    My question is, what if your barrel minus the muzzle device ISNT the longest part of your rifle?

    My Barrel is 10.5, its inside a 12" rail. The barrel's muzzle device is not permanent, but is needed for safety since firing the weapon without the muzzle device would blow the last 2" of the rail off :ar15:

    So is my firearm OAL measured from the end of the rail or do I need to remove the rail and measure from the end of the barrel threads?

    Just as an example for a COP upper https://aeroprecisionusa.com/cop-m4-mid-length-upper-receiver-kit-black.html

    Mine is not a COP upper. The rail is attached to the barrel nut like most rails are.
     
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    Vigilant

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    I cannot find a cite, but you should be ok as long as the ATF doesn’t decide your hand guard is a baffle stack ala Sig MPX? This seems to be a very murky shade of muddy gray. Add a LAW folder to the receiver extension and gain another 1+” if you’re shooting for 26” OAL. My 10.5 is over 26 with a KAK tube and LAW folder, without having the blade brace on it.
     

    JJFII

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    I cannot find a cite, but you should be ok as long as the ATF doesn’t decide your hand guard is a baffle stack ala Sig MPX? This seems to be a very murky shade of muddy gray. Add a LAW folder to the receiver extension and gain another 1+” if you’re shooting for 26” OAL. My 10.5 is over 26 with a KAK tube and LAW folder, without having the blade brace on it.

    I am not familiar with the situation of the MPX. I'll measure mine when its all assembled. If I need that law folder, I'll be sure to get it before violating pistol definitions.

    Thank you.
     

    JJFII

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    Here is one place of many on the webz that displays a BATF letter explaining how to measure overall length. Look at question and answer 3 for measurement and q/a 4 for description of what is a permanent barrel attachment. On the front end, length is measured from the end of the barrel.
    https://johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/

    Yes that is the document everyone points to. The issue is, what if your barrel threads are inside the firearm? Do I now have to remove framing and rails to access the barrel threads to measure from there? Think about Monolithic Uppers from Colt, Aero and many others. The barrel end is under the rails and a muzzle device directs the blast to the outside of the rail frame.

    Shouldnt the frame of the rifle (COP Upper), or even an aftermarket rail (Standard FF rail), be considered the end of the firearm, if said Rail or Frame extends over and encompasses the entire barrel?
     

    KJQ6945

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    Yes that is the document everyone points to. The issue is, what if your barrel threads are inside the firearm? Do I now have to remove framing and rails to access the barrel threads to measure from there? Think about Monolithic Uppers from Colt, Aero and many others. The barrel end is under the rails and a muzzle device directs the blast to the outside of the rail frame.

    Shouldnt the frame of the rifle (COP Upper), or even an aftermarket rail (Standard FF rail), be considered the end of the firearm, if said Rail or Frame extends over and encompasses the entire barrel?

    I can see your point on a true monolithic upper. But as far as the Colt monolithic guns, they come in 4 barrel lengths. The 6940 at 16.1" is the only non NFA version. Then you have the 6944 at 14.5", the 6943 at 11.5", and the 6945 at 10.3". The uppers are the same, just the barrel length changes. The barrel is still the longest part, as it extends beyond the upper.

    I don't know of anyone that sells a monolithic upper that is longer than the barrel. I doubt anyone would just for the safety aspects.

    I had the barrel on my MPX cut down to 4" from 8". The handguard is probably 7". It hides the suppressor nicely, but I take the handguard off if it will be shot unsuppressed.

    The monolithic upper being longer than the barrel could be a question for the technology branch, but be careful, common sense is pretty rare. You might not like the answer they give you.
     

    JJFII

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    I’m not sure on the handguard question, however recently the ATF raided a gun shop and determined that firearms with a folding stock would be measured with the stock folded. So I wouldn’t use a LAW folder to get extra length.

    More info here: www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/05/24/oal-brace-folded/amp/

    I'd like to see the actual case on that raid. I know California has a rule that if the firearm can fire while the stock is folded, then the folded length is the OAL, its the shortest length while still in a usable condition. California has a 30" rule as well as an 26" rule.
     

    ROLEXrifleman

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    Stop over thinking this.
    1st, a handgaurd has nothing to do with the OAL equation.
    2nd, unless it’s permanently attached, a muzzle device has no bearing on OAL
    3rd, if the stock is retractable or foldable open it up so that is is in its LONGEST position.
    4th, measure from top of barrel to tip of stock.

    thats your oal, done
     

    JJFII

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    Stop over thinking this. <- Its kinda more complicated than you think.
    1st, a handgaurd has nothing to do with the OAL equation. <- It does when the ATF's says to remove your non-permanent muzzle device, which is UNDER the handguards
    2nd, unless it’s permanently attached, a muzzle device has no bearing on OAL <- Correct, and thats the problem
    3rd, if the stock is retractable or foldable open it up so that is is in its LONGEST position. <- Not the issue, except for what one guy posted here saying the ATF went off on folding stocks
    4th, measure from top of barrel to tip of stock. <- to measure my OAL from the tip of the barrel threads to the end of the stock, I first have to REMOVE MY HANDGUARDS which are set around and locked onto the barrel nut which has not been addressed by the ATF.



    thats your oal, done

    I asked the question to see if someone had already done this and got a favorable ruling.

    All I am saying is the ATF has not addressed this situation. Many many firearms have short barrels under handguards, some of which are built with monolithic uppers. It doesnt seem right to disassemble a firearm to measure it because that is not the condition its used in.

    Its akin to the ATF coming out and saying OAL is now measured from the rear of the Receiver----- AFTER you have removed the stock or Receiver extension tube if so equipped. Time to bust off that castle nut and unscrew the buffer tube to measure OAL...LOL

    My Firearm will measure 26.5" from the end of the receiver extension tube to the end of the Barrel threads...measured BEFORE installing the Muzzle device and assembling the handguards around it. For a "Weapons Tech" to inspect my firearms OAL, they will have to heat my Loktite and/or drill out my staked bolts to remove the handguards, then unscrew the MD to expose the barrel threads.

    My OAL before you do all this is 28.5", But its possible to do this with a firearm barrel shorter which would cause the ATF's position on how to measure a problem.

    I dont want to push the issue for fear of them going the opposite direction and saying, "yes handguards and Stocks must be removed / FOLDED CLOSE before measuring for OAL." Because then a bunch of firearms just dropped into NFA territory.
     

    ROLEXrifleman

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    a hand guard does not make a firearm. It’s the barrel. This is as simple as it sounds, the answers right there, you just choose not to accept it. Your situation is not unique, it’s not the first time it’s been done.
    I’m speaking from not only experience but from a professional standpoint. As a state police officer with a good friend in the M-Villen atf office this is as cut and dry as it gets. This has been one I’ve asked about for my own reasons and one of the few times everyone in that office agreed

    so again, take your hang guard off and measure the barrel.
     
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    KJQ6945

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    The only way a handguard might ever figure into the equation, would be a monolithic upper. That's not what you have here, so what's the big deal? Measure it off the barrel.

    Locktite is not the the same as pinned and welded, therefore, not permanent. The rules are fairly clear in this instance, which is rare. Buy a stamp and quit worrying about it. It's cheaper in the long run
     

    ROLEXrifleman

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    Monolithic uppers came up in conversation too. While it makes sense that a fixed length rail would go toward the OAL since it cant be removed, the conversation always went back to the verbiage that says BARREL. If you put a stripped 12" monolithic upper on a completed lower, have you created a firearm?, NOPE, you haven't created anything. But the minute you place an upper, be it mono or traditional with a barrel on it you have.
     

    ROLEXrifleman

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    For reference, heres one of my personal SBRs
    Same situation you have on the front end. Barrel is IN the hand guard. Guess what, measured from tip of barrel to the back with stock open. 19.5" on paper.

    102jbci.jpg


    2ntiejd.jpg
     

    KJQ6945

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    Monolithic uppers came up in conversation too. While it makes sense that a fixed length rail would go toward the OAL since it cant be removed, the conversation always went back to the verbiage that says BARREL. If you put a stripped 12" monolithic upper on a completed lower, have you created a firearm?, NOPE, you haven't created anything. But the minute you place an upper, be it mono or traditional with a barrel on it you have.
    I'm not arguing with you, I agree. My avatar pic is my Colt 6945 monolithic. As stated earlier, I don't think any company would sell you a mono upper with a barrel shorter than the handguard. It would be a liability nightmare.
     

    KJQ6945

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    And here is mine.

    This is how I use it. Obviously, it's not a safe queen.

    0C6F57FD-FF3D-4C89-BC8D-16E8C34D6804_zpsrrvxudtt.jpg





    Without the can.

    9C9B1624-1E36-4306-BA85-D1065DD592DA_zpsjtptjord.jpg


    And here's the barrel


    043835E3-04A3-42CD-88D4-F6D19CB24DAD_zpsiqzoks1d.jpg
     

    JJFII

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    a hand guard does not make a firearm. It’s the barrel. This is as simple as it sounds, the answers right there, you just choose not to accept it. Your situation is not unique, it’s not the first time it’s been done.
    I’m speaking from not only experience but from a professional standpoint. As a state police officer with a good friend in the M-Villen atf office this is as cut and dry as it gets. This has been one I’ve asked about for my own reasons and one of the few times everyone in that office agreed

    so again, take your hang guard off and measure the barrel.

    This is close to the answer I am looking for. People have asked what I am asking but never challenged the answer.

    Your first response was basically quite rude. I understand it now because you are LEO so your mindset is different than the normal folk. The law is the law as explained to you and you support how it was explained to you. Your answer to me was an order, which your training teaching you how to address people. It took me 10 years to stop talking to my wife as a Drill Instructor. 10 years of, "watch your tone, your words and your attitude when talking to me...I aint your recruit."

    You are not reading my question the way I am intending it.

    I came from a State where gun owners have to fight daily. Not a month goes by before laws that completely strip away the 2nd Amendment are put forth to lawmakers. Its a constant battle. You have to live your life as a potential criminal everyday looking for a way out of the path to criminal-hood and a way to change the law. It seems (from my readings on INGO) Hoosiers are a little lackadaisical in their 2nd Amendment upkeep. When you live in a rain forest you don't think about conserving water.

    It is 100% wrong to allow a person to extend a stock, that is not needed to fire a round, but require a handguard to be removed. That thinking needs to be challenged. If this was California there would be Paralegals contacting hundreds of volunteers from the CalGuns website vetting prospective plaintiffs looking for a class action attack against the underground regulation in a effort to nullify the muzzle device and now the handguard ruling without changing the "rear attachment" ruling.

    I understand the definitions of longarm, handgun, AOW, and firearm is what pushes the underground regulation of allowing the firearms stock to be extended... I am sure you are going to tell me there is no policy of allowing the non-stock to be extended.

    If its a RIFLE, then it should be in the configuration of shoulder firing before measuring. So I take it this is where the underground regulation of extending a stock on a NON-Rifle stems from.

    As a person pointed out here, if you have a NON-Shoulder fired firearm with a folding "attachment", the OAL is measured with the attachment in the shortest position. A "cheek rest" an "arm Brace" are both the same as a "handguard".

    I am sure Lawyers have looked at the extending of a stock on a rifle as a 1/2 win and not to poke the Bear and ask for a reasoning from the ATF.

    An adjustable Stock would be measured in the shortest possible shoulder firing position. If the Stock was housing a receiver extension tube...LIKE AN AR15A2 Stock.. then why are we not forced to remove the stock and measure from the end of the tube? Please explain your reasoning that a handguard should be removed, which is needed to hold the front of the firearm, while an A2 stock would not be removed, when the only reason the stock is there is for comfort? Are slip on butt pads required to be removed? Why am I removing my handguards and a persons is not required to unscrew the bolt holding their stock onto the frame? Where is all this Federal Code explaining this regulation? I'm not really asking, I'm just being facetious.
     

    JJFII

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    I know people are going to freak out over this so I am going to make it simple:

    If your policy is the removal a MD, which is cosmetic, functional and a safety device, as well as a handguard that is cosmetic, functional and a safety device, why are you allowing a Stock, that is cosmetic, functional and a safety device? (AR15A2 stock)


    If your answer is, "oh thank you for pointing that out, you now have to remove your stock (AR15A2) or remove that collapsible stock to expose the tube before measuring"... then your regulation has potentially turned millions of law abiding people into felons, because I bet there are millions of people who are using the 1"-6" of stock to make the OAL to the threads.

    This is why you challenge regulations.
     

    Rookie

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    The problem is that you're trying to make sense of stupidity. Why is a Glock frame a firearm, but the barrel of a Ruger 22/45 is considered the firearm? Why does putting a forward grip on a pistol magically change it into an AOW? It's not limited to firearms, did you know that allowing a non US citizen to LOOK through a night vision device is illegal?

    The point is, a lot of the rules are arbitrary and senseless. You have a few choices though...
    1. Follow the rules
    2. Ignore the rules
    3. Ask them to change the rules
     
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