Taking the full Tormek T8 Plunge

[Hohn]

I'm going for it. With the Japanese waterstone also. (capable of taking an edge < 100 BESS pretty easily).

I cannot find another system that offers the combination of speed and refinement of the Tormek. Wicked edge and others can certainly produce amazing sharpness. But can the WE do it in 5-10 min? I've never seen it done that fast on a manual system.

I've messed around with so many manual sharpeners that I just don't see myself ever taking to the WE. It's for knife enthusiasts who relish the process as much as the product, and don't mind the effort required. That's not me. I want excellent edges and I don't want to use 7-8 grits and hundreds of strokes and an hour of my time to get them. With the wet grinding of a Tormek, you can skip some of the coarser grades in many cases because the speed of the grinder saves you the lost time.

I've got the cheap little Worksharp and it's OK. It's mostly good at turning a knife into dust and at eating through belts. It removes material WAY too fast for any knife you actually care about. IME, the WSK&T is basically for mower blade and outdoor tools, not for any knife worth owning or using.

There are now diamond wheels available for the Tormek if you REALLY need to remove some material and do it quickly.


The only criticism I have of the Tormek is the one everyone has: it's too expensive. Yes it is. But in the scheme of a lifetime of never being frustrated by inability to get something sharp, I think it's worth the money. I also enjoy woodworking and as I get older and more arthritic, I will need something easy and convenient for sharpening.

And why the pricey T8 instead of the T4?

For me, it's mostly the availability of the silicon carbide and diamond wheels not offered in the smaller size. The larger wheels of the T8 will last a good bit longer.

When you include all the things that the T4 omits (stone truing tool, basic jigs, etc) you see that the T4 really isn't a much cheaper option.


Finally, the larger diameter of the T8 wheels gets you a less hollow grind because of the larger radius. Does it matter? Probably not, but less hollow is better, IMO.

 

[KokomoDave]

Big buck$!!

 

[churchmouse]

Yowza. Spendy but I get it.

 

[Gabriel]

Patiently waiting your review on it.

I like the WE. For making knives and using it to sharpen them, it takes a considerable amount of time that I could better spend doing something else. Plus it can't do a lot of things I need it to like sharpen my hatchets and related things (it will with some thinking and mods, but it's still a pain. I normally just use my 2X72). I like the WE for what it is, but if I can find something else that's pretty fool proof, faster, and creates a great edge, I'm all ears.

I just looked it up and about $800 isn't bad at all if you sharpen a decent amount of blades. Hell, a WE with all the extra grits you'd want will run near that.

 

[Hohn]

With only the included wheels, this guy gets a Global kitchen knife down to 75 BESS (sharpness scale).

A brand new double edge razor blade out of the paper will best about 50 BESS in most cases.

[video=youtube_share;UckPmizllk0]https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0[/video]

Just as importantly, it took him about 10 min or less.

A Coarse tormek pass (220), a fine Tormek pass (~1000 re-graded stone), and then stropping with Tormek compound (3-5 micron mesh).


The Japanese waterstone upgrade will allow similar levels of sharpness without even stropping. (4000 grit equiv)


OR-- if you change the stropping compound to super tiny diamond, you can follow up the waterstone with the stropping wheel and get BESS results in the DE razor range (45-60).


I shave with DE razors and have for a long time, so I have extensive experience with them. If you can get ANY knife as sharp as that super thin strip of steel, you've achieved something pretty remarkable. We throw around the phrase "razor sharp" but I strongly suspect that most people don't have much experience with something truly razor sharp. Merely being able to shave with it or dig into your fingernail isn't even close.

JH

 

[rhino]

Excellent choice! Were I sharpening professionally, my first investment would be a Tormek.

 

[schmart]

If you can afford it, I think you will really like it. I've got the Grizzly clone of it and although it has very well met my needs, it doesn't seem to be to the same level of precision as the Tormek (but it was only $200). However, all the accessories are compatible between the two systems. So if you want that one jig for something specialized that you will only sharpen every couple years, you might think about the Grizzly version.

 

[Hohn]

Excellent choice! Were I sharpening professionally, my first investment would be a Tormek.

I'm thinking about do so on the side. I'm not going to say more about that lest I run afoul of TOS if I actually did hang out a minor shingle. But it'd be a modified, limited hangout

I don't feel the need to justify the thing solely on business grounds. It'd be nice to defray some of the expense, but to me, a lifetime of having my sharpening frustrations removed is worth the price of admittance alone. It's just that I only own so many knives and things, and it'd be nice to keep the machine occupied.

 

[rhino]

I'll probably get one someday, but I need somewhere to install it permanently and of course a job.

 

[pitbulld45]

I'll probably get one someday, but I need somewhere to install it permanently and of course a job.

​You can install it at my house.

 

[Hohn]

T8 with many accessories arrives Tuesday (or later, weather depending).

Even the Japanese water stone!

 

[WhitleyStu]

T8 with many accessories arrives Tuesday (or later, weather depending).

Even the Japanese water stone!

You are going to love it. I use my T2000 quite a bit. Where did you order your T8 from?

 

[rhino]

T8 with many accessories arrives Tuesday (or later, weather depending).

Even the Japanese water stone!

So will the weekly sharpening parties at your house start this week, or will they be bi-weekly or monthly initially?

(see what I did there?)

 

[Hohn]

You are going to love it. I use my T2000 quite a bit. Where did you order your T8 from?

Sharpeningsupplies dot com.

The shipped the same day. Package deal saves a couple bucks.

NOBODY sells the T8 at any kind of discount, it'll be $729 new everywhere you look, at least from what I could tell.

And here's the kicker: because they are industrial, last-forever type machines, the used ones go for about the same price as new. In other words, even though it's expensive, you likely won't lose much money if you decide for whatever reason you don't like it.

I looked at a used one without the stone, it had bids up over $400 iirc. The stone is $200, so you'd be paying $600 for the previous model very well used, or you could just get a new one for $729.

I know the Japanese waterstone isn't strictly necessary for good sharpness, but I'm not a do it halfway or "good enough" kind of guy (hence my first AR was a DD V11 pro).

Heck, you can get passably good sharpness from a 220grit stone if you get the angles right. I mostly got the waterstone because if you send out a knife with a mirror polish edge, it impresses people and they are more likely to think you know what you're doing.

I'll need to practice a bit to make sure I get the skill to take this machine to what its capable of.

I'd love to put a scary sharp edge on something like my old Buck 119.

 

[WhitleyStu]

Hohn,

I use Lansky diamond stones to change the grit of the wheel between grinds rather than the Tormek stone grader. I hold a Lansky coarse diamond stone on the wheel for several revolutions then make the initial grind. Then hold a Lansky fine diamond stone on the wheel for several revolutions. Do a very light grind which leaves the edge with a nice satin finish with very light grind lines. Been sharpening knives on my T2000 for over 15 years. When that T8 beauty arrives post up your thoughts. Feel free to PM me with any questions.

Stu

 

[Hohn]

It's here. And it's spectacular. (Thank you, Teri Hatcher).

Yesterday I got the T8 with hand tool jigs (knives, scissors, axe etc) and the Japanese waterstone. I sat down with it about 6:30 last night and started to orient myself a bit.

The first thing I sharpened was my wood chisels. The new straight-on jig is a masterpiece and the chisels turned out beautifully. I didn't even switch to the waterstone, the 1k grit was more than adequate. A big blue sharpie works almost as well as Dykem. Very cool.

I was stoked. I switched to my old Buck 119. This thing needed a lot of love, so I regraded to 220 grit. The huge curve at the end of the blade is a real problem, it requires essentially freehand skill to try to get a consistent bevel on that curve.

After the passes at 1000 grit, I tested the edge and frankly, it was unimpressive-- it wouldn't push cut paper, and would barely slice. I was so disappointed.I moved to the waterstone expecting it to work magic. It didn't. But I got a really shiny bevel.

I moved on to my Mora and a kitchen knife. The mora I set to basically drop the grind right into the factory grind. This one turned out OK, it'll shave arm hair but frankly even an unimpressive edge will do that. It is "sticky sharp" which is my threshold of acceptability.

I moved on to a Wusthof that has always been a bugger to sharpen. (it has that stupid heel on the blade which I've come to really hate). Similar to the Buck, I did multiple passes on each side and got disappointing sharpness and a shiny bevel.

What gives?

It turns out that I was sharpening the Buck and the Wusthof at 56 degrees rather than the 28 I intended, because I wasn't using the angle finder properly. More than a very wide angle, when you're grinding the stone going toward the blade, you will get a lot of chipping and never really get a decent burr. The knife wants to try and dig into the stone and it'll get away from you.

The angle finder is intended to go on the *bevel* and i was registering off the flat part where I could get a good reading-- the part that wasn't ground. Only after reading the manual did I learn this. I think it's dumb to register off the bevel because 1) many knives have bevels much smaller than the angle finder and 2) bevels are often not ground flat, but have a hollow or convex grind, so you're indication won't be consistent.


Anyway, this leads to a key insight: to get the most from the T8, you simply MUST have more precise angle control than the angle finder that's included. I will be using an Excel sheet that does the trig and calculates the height of the support bar based on the installed length of the jig and the wheel diameter. You then use a depth gauge or caliper to set the height.

There's an Aussie that developed software for this purpose, but you could just as easily do it with any spreadsheet if you break out the cosine rule.


Then there's the stropping wheel. I'm likely doing something wrong, but I simply couldn't get any good results with it on a knife. Chisels turned out great. But knives, I think each of them was worse off the strop than it was going in. I followed the directions with oiling the leather and all that. The wheel goes "thwop thwop" every time it hits that joint in the leather, which is a bit annoying, but shouldn't reduce performance.


Which leads to my final initial thought: there IS a learning curve with this thing. It's not an automatic panacea to incredible sharpness for perpetuity. But it is very capable, capable even of mitigating some (but not all) limitations of the operator.


I'll try to get some pics if I can remember to bring out my phone in the mess of water, slurry, and compound.

 

[Hohn]

Practiced more last night with my learnings from the night before.

A few additional observations:

I think the stropping wheel takes a LOT of break-in before it actually starts to contribute useful sharpness. Almost all of my first attempts made the edge worse, even as I was careful not to use to much angle to roll the edge.

Repeatability of of fixturing and such is truly essential, I'm seeing that more than ever.


Results vary quite a bit from knife to knife. Using the same angles and sharpening procedures, my results are ranging from "meh, it'll slice copy paper mostly" on my old Buck 119 (440A steel) to "it'll push cut newsprint" on my Mora carbon steel knife.

This tells me that each steel kind of needs its own angle and grinding sequence. You experienced guys already know or appreciate this, but I'm surprised how significant it is.


The ultra-fine Waterstone produces some impressively polished bevels. But my trials last night suggest that after more than one or two passes, you are actually making it duller with each pass. I can't explain why additional passes on 4k grit make the edge worse, but I'm convinced I actually lost sharpness the more I tried to polish that edge.

It seemed also to be true of the stropping. The longer I stropped, the less sharp the edge felt.


That's when another realization hit me: the blade can be gaining sharpness and actually "feel" less sharp as you refine it with the 4k grit and the strop. Why? When you have a coarser grit, the edge microscopically resembles a serrated knife and will have some "sticky sharp" quality where the tiny little "teeth" will grab into your skin or such more readily. As you refine it at higher grits and edge gets smoother, these "teeth" get smaller and smaller and the edge will lose some of its "Sticky sharp" aspect.

I remain optimistic, given the huge improvement in my results with just two nights of experience.

 

[WhitleyStu]

Only strop one or two passes on each side. Strop at 2 degrees less than grind angle. Always keep the flange on the blade holder against the guide bar from tip to heel or you will get facets on the edge ruining edge quality.

 

[rhino]

Practiced more last night with my learnings from the night before.

A few additional observations:

I think the stropping wheel takes a LOT of break-in before it actually starts to contribute useful sharpness. Almost all of my first attempts made the edge worse, even as I was careful not to use to much angle to roll the edge.

Repeatability of of fixturing and such is truly essential, I'm seeing that more than ever.


Results vary quite a bit from knife to knife. Using the same angles and sharpening procedures, my results are ranging from "meh, it'll slice copy paper mostly" on my old Buck 119 (440A steel) to "it'll push cut newsprint" on my Mora carbon steel knife.

This tells me that each steel kind of needs its own angle and grinding sequence. You experienced guys already know or appreciate this, but I'm surprised how significant it is.


The ultra-fine Waterstone produces some impressively polished bevels. But my trials last night suggest that after more than one or two passes, you are actually making it duller with each pass. I can't explain why additional passes on 4k grit make the edge worse, but I'm convinced I actually lost sharpness the more I tried to polish that edge.

It seemed also to be true of the stropping. The longer I stropped, the less sharp the edge felt.


That's when another realization hit me: the blade can be gaining sharpness and actually "feel" less sharp as you refine it with the 4k grit and the strop. Why? When you have a coarser grit, the edge microscopically resembles a serrated knife and will have some "sticky sharp" quality where the tiny little "teeth" will grab into your skin or such more readily. As you refine it at higher grits and edge gets smoother, these "teeth" get smaller and smaller and the edge will lose some of its "Sticky sharp" aspect.

I remain optimistic, given the huge improvement in my results with just two nights of experience.

If you're seeing/feeling the results of polishing away the little micro teeth that give a rougher edge it's feel and cutting ability those edges might not feel as sharp, but they should shave and cut paper and do other push cutting/shearing pretty well for a long time before getting dull. Of course, that's the opposite kind of edge than I want on most of my knives!

I've been experimenting with ceramics for finishing and stropping edges as well as touch-ups after sharpening with my usual diamond abrasives. I get an edge that with pop hair and slice aggressively with my normal tools. If I do just a tiny bit with the ceramics, it improves the shaving and paper slicing (different sound and feel) and only reduces the slicing potential a little. A few gentle touch-ups will preserve that, but after a while the edge gets too polished and it will slide across materials it should bite into aggressively, even if it cuts well after starting the cut.

 

[Hohn]

The "microteeth" thing is why a very hardcore knife guy once told me that he skips medium grits and goes from fairly coarse (400 Chosera in his case) to very fine (3k Chosera) with certain knives intended for heavy duty cutting. The result is a "polished toothy" edge that won't pop hairs necessarily but will cut things like rope, leather, and cardboard like you'd never believe. It's like having a really finely polished and refined serrated knife with teeny tiny serrations.

@whitley: when you say strop at 2 degrees less, you mean like go from 15 deg grind (per side) for example and strop at 13? I've read similar that you dont want to actually strop the very apex, you want to strop just behind it (hence the reduced angle). The idea is that the slight conformability of the strop will give you the last two degrees or so and just kiss the apex without rolling it over.