Anyone know anything about Antique swords? Any Freemasons in the house?History Buffs?

[The Meach]

I picked up this sword a couple years ago and I am just now starting to dig into the history of it.

Its Old. Very old. Scabbard is Brass with what I think is *silver?* Not sure what the blade is, It had a black tarnish on it when i found it. But along its length there are beautiful and intricately etched patterns (too faint for my camera to pick up but easy for the eye). The Hilt and guard are a Dark wood(?) and some metal that makes a white tarnish(?).

I had assumed it was a Knights of Columbus sword and took it into my priest to see if any of the KOC could learn anything about it. They told me what it was in fact a masonic sword.

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On top there is The Helmet of St. John the Crusader. and several Ornate Crosses laid into the wood and both sides of the guard.

Just above the guard on the blade is etched:

J.D. Caldwell,
Cincinnati, O

Now all I Found some info on who this J.D. Caldwell may be.

His name is on the List of American Sword Makers on the Antique Swords of America Site. Swords Of America - Antique Sword makers of America!

There is an Article about a J.D. Caldwell from the New York Times in 1886 where he was named Grand secretary of the Ohio Masons
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A05E5D61E30E533A25752C2A9669D94679FD7CF

And another Article about a J.D. Caldwell also from the Times in 1879 about his helping in correspondence Between Gen. Grant of the Union army and His Father.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9F02E1DE113EE73BBC4D52DFB4678382669FDE

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At the Top of the Scabbard There is an image of an Knight at the entrance to a tent surounded by what looks like an encampment.

Below that there is a Cross inside a Crown with "Be Thou Faithful unto Death and I will give thee a crown of life" surrounding it, Which is Revelations 2:10 as read from the King James Version

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Below that the letters appear the letters JAF. No idea what that means. could be initials? my google fu failed me on this one.

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Lower there is an image of an old man wearing a large cross walking with a stick. He is carrying something like a stick or scroll.

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And i have no Idea what these markings at the bottom of the sword are...


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Also on the back in three places there is the number 19 (or the numbers 1 and 9)

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Wow that was a long one. If you are still with me Thanks a lot.

I've pretty much exhausted my resources (reached the limits of my google-tec) and i'm not quite sure what to do now.

I'd like to find the history of this thing. Possibly who it belonged to, who made it, why?, what do all those symbols mean, and last but not least...How much is it worth???

So far in my search i have dug up Famous Masons, Rich Dead Ohioians, and Civil war Generals.

Anyone have any knowledge or insight? Know anyone who knows anything about these things? Or, if all fails, knows when Antiques Roadshow is coming through town???

Thanks So Much Everyone. If just for reading my little novel.

 

[IUGradStudent]

Wow! Fascinating sword! Where did you find it and how much did it cost (if you are willing to say). Thanks for sharing.

 

[The Meach]

Wow! Fascinating sword! Where did you find it and how much did it cost (if you are willing to say). Thanks for sharing.

Found it at a Small Antiques store on the east side of Indy and it lightened my wallet bout 100 bills.

 

[Whosyer]

Looks like a "Knights Templar" type sword.

 

[The Meach]

Looks like a "Knights Templar" type sword.

I'm starting to think the same thing. But is a Templar sword a common item for Masons? It it a gift? Or is it something that you receive once you a certain rank? Were how common were they in the late 1800's? (thats when i'm beginning to assume this was made)

Can any freemason's help out here?

 

[Whosyer]

I'm starting to think the same thing. But is a Templar sword a common item for Masons? It it a gift? Or is it something that you receive once you a certain rank? Were how common were they in the late 1800's? (thats when i'm beginning to assume this was made)

Can any freemason's help out here?

The Knights Templar,like the Scottish Rite and the "Shriners" ,to put it in laymans terms, are a "branch" of the Freemasons. I don't personally know that much about the Knights Templar.
I did find this with a google search. It somewhat explains the significance of the number 19.

[SIZE=+3]Raper No. 19 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+3]Commandary of Knights Templar[/SIZE]
Chartered: October 15, 1869 ​

 

[The Meach]

The Knights Templar,like the Scottish Rite and the "Shriners" ,to put it in laymans terms, are a "branch" of the Freemasons. I don't personally know that much about the Knights Templar.
I did find this with a google search. It somewhat explains the significance of the number 19.

[SIZE=+3]Raper No. 19 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+3]Commandary of Knights Templar[/SIZE]
Chartered: October 15, 1869 ​

WOW Great Find! I just shot an E-mail to the contact address that they have for the guys over at Commandary No. 19. Lets see what they have to say

*I also kicked off e-mails to the office at the Grand lodge in Ohio and The American sword Expert at OldSwords.com. Hopefully they will be able to get me some info

 

[slacker]

Cool find, its always fun to dig into the history of a mysterious object.

 

[CombatVet]

I don't think it's a freemasons sword. The black substance could have in fact been blood. I'd suggest not cleaning it any more as it substantially lowers the value.

Looking back at the sword I noticed the 19 and the screw next to it. Which throws me off since the 19 looks machined and the screw is obviously new. It's possible that they were added at a later date. So I doubt it was from the crusades era.

It looks like a very nice mantle piece. It would be worth taking it some where and having some more research on it man.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Cool sword even it turns out to not be worth much .

 

[rc5699]

It's a York Rite sword. It is a piece of regalia for the officers in York Rite.

Everyone who is going to be active in the York Rite has to have a uniform that includes at least a Jacket, Trousers, Dress shoes (All Black) a Chapeaus, and a sword. I know because I would like to become active in the York Rite but it isn't exactly cheap, A completed uniform will run you $1,000 +

Cool Sword either way!

 

[rc5699]

This may help as well. It is a list of the major manufactures of these swords. With the list below you should be able to get a rough date as to when your sword was made.


1850 - 1871 Frank Henderson
1871 - 1873 Henderson and Giddings
1873 - 1893 Frank Henderson
1893 - 1923 Henderson Ames
1923 - 1925 The M. C. Lilley and Company
1925 - 1931 The Lilley Company
1931 - 1951 Lilley-Ames Company
1951 - 1953 Lilley-Ames Company

If you can not find one of these names on the sword then your sword was more then likely made some time after the 50's. That Cross and Crown symbol is very near and dear to Masonic Knight Templars. But it didn't exist before 1850.

Hope this helps.

 

[Serial Crusher]

It's a York Rite sword. It is a piece of regalia for the officers in York Rite.

Everyone who is going to be active in the York Rite has to have a uniform that includes at least a Jacket, Trousers, Dress shoes (All Black) a Chapeaus, and a sword. I know because I would like to become active in the York Rite but it isn't exactly cheap, A completed uniform will run you $1,000 +

Cool Sword either way!

Definitely, that's what I thought the moment I saw it. I'm in the same boat, I would like to be in the York Rite, but it is a serious investment.

An image search for "York Rite sword" yeilds quite a few results that look similar to your sword. York Rite sword - Google Images As far as the symbolism of the images and engravings, that could take years to decipher, and would probably be subject to debate. Symbolism in Masonry is generally intended to be interpreted, rather than be a direct message. You can find out a little more here, www.yorkrite.org but I think you've already found out quite a bit by learning the maker. It might not be too difficult to find out who it was made for if you email a few York Rite Vallies.

 

[rc5699]

I would like to be in the York Rite, but it is a serious investment.

I hear you. I think it sucks. I'm sure YR loses a lot of new men due to that. I mean I don't want join and not do anything with it. So until I'm in a position that I can afford to do it right I wont be doing it at all.

Just like many many others feel.

 

[Serial Crusher]

Yes, I was told you could get by with the one of the Commandery's chapeaus and vests for the stated meetings, but you would have to own the regalia to be part of any functions or close order drill.

 

[The Meach]

I sent This out in a couple E-mails. One of which was to the American Swords Expert on OldSwords.com. Here is what i have got so far.

Hello Jon,
>> Thanks for asking.
>> I believe that what you have is a sword of a member of the Masonic
>> organization the Knights Templar. They were and are probably the largest
>> and most important Masonic organization in America.
>> Caldwell is almost certainly the maker, not the owner. The owner's name
>> may be on the blade, further down.
>> You probably know that it is important not to try to clean it other than
>> very carefully, and not with abrasives. A light coating of oil, and some
>> wiping with a cotton cloth would be an excellent start.
>> I would be happy to look at photos and try to tell you more. However,
>> I am
>> far from being an expert on Masonic swords. If you send me photos, I
>> will
>> forward them to my friend Michael C.MacDonald, who has just published a
>> superb book on swords and uniforms of the Knights Templar.
>> What part of the country are you in? I may be able to direct you to
>> someone local to you.
>> Regarding value, swords of the Masons are not yet highly valued,
>> although
>> I believe that is changing. More and more collectors are becoming
>> interested in them, and your sword sounds like a fine one.
>> Regards,
>> Steven

to which i responded with

-Mr. Cain
>
> Thank you so much for the Reply. I was beginning to suspect a connection
> to the Templars.
>
> I'm thinking The the owner of the sword is the one with the Initials JAF
> etched into the scabbard. But it has been fun looking into J.D.
> Caldwell, from what i can find he was a pretty interesting guy.
>
> As far as cleaning I'm not sure but i think i may have already messed
> that one up. When i got it it I used a soft cloth and Mothers Mag &
> aluminum polish to try and get some of the tarnish off. It succeeded and
> from what i can tell with untrained eyes it doesn't look damaged from
> the cleaner but I most certainly could be wrong.
>
> I've enclosed the pictures as a attachment I hope that they didn't bog
> down your e-mail. I would be most grateful if you could have you friend
> look at them.
>
> And I live in central Indiana just off the North Side of Indianapolis.
> I'm not much of a sword buff (I'm more of a firearms guy) but I
> am very much enjoying the "hunt" for this things history.
>
> Thanks again-

And sent him the pictures in this thread

Hi Jon,
That is definitely a Knights Templar sword, and a better quality one than
is usually found. The mounts are much higher quality, and the blade
appears to be heavier than the majority, strongly suggesting the just
post-Civil War era.
JAF would definitely have been its owner. Unfortunately, tracking him down
would be almost impossible. If someone has Caldwell's records, then it
might be done. Or, if it could be associated with a particular lodge, they
might have member's lists. Other than that, there is little likelihood of
finding him.
Is the blade engraved? Frequently, they would have the owner's name on the
blade.
I doubt that you did any harm with the aluminum polish, but I would
recommend avoiding it in the future. If there is rust that can be removed,
then there is a product called "Nevr-Dull," which is very gentle, but
works well. It can be found in most auto supply shops, and many hardware
stores.
If the blade is etched or engraved, could you take photos of that?
Value is highly relative. Between the maker and the quality, I would
estimate about $250.00. I do believe that they will be gaining value in
the near future, as there are two new books out about them.
Regards,
Steven

That's the last one. I just responded to him with this.

-Steven

I've sent a few feelers out to Ohio Mason lodges to see if they know anything about the sword or Mr. Caldwell. Hopefully that will bear some returns.

The Blade has some light engraving But it is difficult to capture with a camera. I did my best (i also included a closeup on the blade and played with the contrast a bit, i helped the engraving 'pop' a little more) There also seems to be a bit of (Fire Damage?) to the tip of the blood. The only name i can find on the blade is on the oposite side of the J.D. Caldwell engraving and it is the same JAF that is on the scabbard (I do hope i am getting these sword terms correct)

I'll refrain from using any of the Mag polish in the future. I'll look into the Nevr-dull next time i'm down at Napa.

Hope the pictures come out well

-Jon

Just thought I'd keep updatin'

I'f anyone has ideas or insight let em' be heard

 

[Whosyer]

Have you been to this link yet? Masonic Knight Templar Swords | The Knights Templar | www.templarhistory.com#
It's another site by Stephen Dafoe.(author of the compasses and the cross)

I also found this very interesting and informative posting on ebay.
ORNATE CRUSADER CREST! Old Masonic KNIGHT TEMPLAR SWORD - eBay (item 130334303728 end time Oct-15-09 18:00:58 PDT)

Here's a commanders sword.
19th Century M.C. LILLEY Masonic Commander's Sword - eBay (item 140350280908 end time Oct-11-09 18:00:04 PDT)

 

[Whosyer]

Any new info?

 

[Sweet James]

It's a Freemasons ceramonial sword. All lodges have them. Good find for the money.

 

[paddling_man]

I don't think it's a freemasons sword. The black substance could have in fact been blood.

True statements. We're, in fact, very careful about cleaning the blood off the blades.

I would almost take issue with the statement that the "Knights Templar are.. ..the most important Masonic organization in the United States." That would be Blue Lodge.

I considered both York and Scottish early on and felt more led to Scottish Rite.

Cool find on the sword. Purely ceremonial and, like most Masonic regalia, not particularly valuable to those outside the Brotherhood. However, it is a nice example and think you did well.