The grey area of firearms

[Erick46590]

It has come to my understanding that 12 ga shotguns (since the bore is larger than .50") cannot have a mag over the size of 10rds or it no longer falls into the "sporting purpose" category. But I have seen an ar upper that is a belt fed shotgun. Since you register the lower, is it still considered a rifle since it is registered as one? If so, can it have a 16" barrel instead of 18"? Also, is that automatically a destructive device regardless of mag limit since it fires a round larger than .50"?

Another question I had is what is the legality of an under-barrel shotgun attachment (the "masterkey")? If it comes from the factory as an AOW (so we don't run into the SBS problem) would it be legal to have one mounted? Or would we run into a problem with a combination gun? But it they are registered as two separate weapons would it be legal to have them mounted together since they are both registered separately? Just a few questions I had. Thanks in advance for any help

 

[JoshuaW]

For what it is worth, you can get a 20 round drum for the Saiga 12. I'm not sure what restriction you were referring to.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

It has come to my understanding that 12 ga shotguns (since the bore is larger than .50") cannot have a mag over the size of 10rds or it no longer falls into the "sporting purpose" category.

What understanding is this? Which statute are you referencing?

Is this some federal statute or DoT ruling or California statute that you are referencing?

 

[westfork]

 

[Erick46590]

When i posted the part about the shotgun mag limit I did not look up the laws for myself I was going off of information posted on another forum (must have been referring to the AWB or possibly cali laws?) But I did look up the definition of destructive device and it has me kind of worried.

The definition of a "destructive device" is found in 26 U.S.C. § 5845
(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter (.50 inches or 12.7mm), except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes

And as for what they do and don't consider sporting look up ATF Rul. 94-1, 94-2, 95-3. In an ATF "study" they looked at things such as:
(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
(2) bayonet lugs;
(3) flash suppressors;
(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
(5) grenade-launcher mounts;
(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
(7) light enhancing devices;
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);
(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping theshotgun with the shooter’s extended hand.


So if the saiga shotgun has a mag capacity easily available that is past that which is "sporting" is it a possibility that it may soon become banned too? And also, those who have been watching this thread, please give any input you may have on the other questions too. thanks.

 

[Erick46590]

Another thing that seems interesting is the pistol gripped shotguns that are transferred as AOWS. Since the 12ga round is larger than .50" (automatically a DD except for sporting purposes) if it is classified as an AOW since it is not technically a shotgun since it isn't shoulder fired, how is it legal? It isn't a shotgun, so it no longer has the "sporting purpose", but it shoots a round larger than .50"... anybody think they may eventually become classified as DD's?

 

[ATM]

You'd probably get more answers if you got a MOD to move this to the Class III (NFA) section.

 

[JoshuaW]

Yes, there were talks at one point in time of moving pistol grip only shotguns to the DD category, but they have not/did not. I'm sure it will be brought up again at some point.

The study you sighted was exactly that, a study. At the time they were looking to reclass shotguns with those features, which would, among other things, ban them from import. They requested general input from the public, then posted our statements out there for the world to see, along with our addresses, phone numbers and other identifying information.

I'm not sure you are looking at the right definitions of things, and I can't say that I blame you, it is very confusing. It just gets worse when you get proposed regulations, old regulations, and other state's regulations thrown at you.

 

[Erick46590]

ok, i just wanted to be completely sure. but aside from the shotgun mag limit, does anyone know anything about the other things I asked about?

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

ok, i just wanted to be completely sure. but aside from the shotgun mag limit, does anyone know anything about the other things I asked about?

If you want to hear about every possible crazy regulation on shotguns, may I suggest forum.Saiga-12.com . I also recommend wearing your flame suit and being prepared for strong opinions. Be aware that the Saiga forum is a great resource on the topic but is decidedly NSFW. Did I mention that they have strong opinoins?

 

[Erick46590]

lol, ok. thanks ArmedProgrammer. Do you have any idea what the belt fed 12ga ar-15 upper would be classified as? If it is still registered as a rifle, would it be illegal since it fires a round past .50"? jw

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Nope, no idea - try on the Saiga forum - or here in the Class III forum. You need to talk with a Class III maker - there are a number of them that frequent the Saiga forum. Guys like Tony Rumore (Tromix), Will Hayden (Red Jacket), Tom Cole (Cadiz Gun Works), etc. They are the folks that deal with the oddball stuff and do so legally. They _have_ to stay on solid terms with the BATFE's in order to stay in business.

Are you thinking of doing a belt fed AR 12 gauge??? Would be interesting. I personally can't see it, when one can get a perfectly legal 20 round drum fed one reasonably. If something's still coming at me after 20 rounds of 12 gauge at Saiga speed, I figure I'm probably done for...

 

[Erick46590]

i wasnt planning on making one. and idk if i would ever end up buying one (someone already makes them, google it, its interesting) i was just wondering if it would even be legal to own was all.