Michigan teenager shot during traffic stop

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  • LP1

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    This happened back in February; sorry if it's a dup, but the video just appeared on CNN:
    Cop kicks phone out of teen's hand, shoots 7 times - CNN Video

    So much went wrong here. Kid started out being polite, officer wouldn't listen, kid got a little stupid but not violent, officer overreacted (IMO), and it went downhill from there. Kid had apparently been coached, saying "why am I being detained", and it didn't go over well. Not sure why he wouldn't comply regarding license, etc., since the officer was in uniform. Then again, why would someone get pulled over just for flashing their brights? And tasing someone just for refusing to get out of their car instead of waiting for backup seems excessive and premature.

    Lots of failure - I'd like to hear some opinions, especially from LE.
     

    foszoe

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    Not an LEO.

    flashing brights to warn of police presence is a violation in IN, I believe.

    Teen didn't look all that big and hard to tell if a a bodily takedown attempt happened by the Sgt. However, dark, can't see, someone starts punching me in the face and I don't know who he is or what he has, or has done, because he refused to identify, which since he is driving, he should have to present a license. if I was the officer, i would be shooting.

    As a civilian, I don't even have the authority to find out who he is or what he has do everything and someone starts punching me in the face, I would be shooting.

    I post my opinions so I can learn from being wrong, and I learn a lot.
     

    T.Lex

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    flashing brights to warn of police presence is a violation in IN, I believe.

    Not so much, IIRC.

    I know an attorney that was actually cited for flashing brights... arguably to warn of an officer running radar. Happened to be another officer coming towards him.

    Oops.

    I believe the charge was dismissed, although that doesn't necessarily mean much as to whether it is unlawful or not.

    Don't feel like looking it up after watching the video, but as I remember, only "driving" with the brights on was unlawful. But, repeatedly flashing brights could be considered aggressive driving.

    I'll also put this here:
    Federal Judge Rules Flashing Headlights is Free Speech | Franklin Indiana Attorney

    That is not the 7th Circuit (Indiana's circuit), but it is compelling.
     

    Dead Duck

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    People will start saying he was shot for flashing his headlights.
    Wrong - He was shot because he was an asshat.

    RAS and/or PC are in the wind the second the kid started to rebel. Now the focus is directly on him and his attitude. He might have just gotten a warning. I feel bad for the cop for having to go through all this BS.
     

    Expat

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    What was the deal with the taser? They said it was too close to work? Did the officer tase himself? I don't have any taser experience.
     

    T.Lex

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    Ok. Found a couple IC cites:

    IC 9-21-8-51 Blinding lights; failure to dim; Class B infraction Sec. 51. A person who: (1) operates a vehicle; and (2) fails to dim bright or blinding lights when meeting another vehicle or pedestrian; commits a Class B infraction.

    IC 9-21-8-55 Aggressive driving Sec. 55. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement official engaged in the law enforcement official's official duties. (b) For purposes of this section, a person engages in aggressive driving if, during one (1) episode of continuous driving of a vehicle, the person does or commits at least three (3) of the following:
    ...
    (9) Repeatedly flashing the vehicle's headlights.
     

    foszoe

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    Hinges on the word repeatedly. ..

    Ok. Found a couple IC cites:

    IC 9-21-8-51 Blinding lights; failure to dim; Class B infraction Sec. 51. A person who: (1) operates a vehicle; and (2) fails to dim bright or blinding lights when meeting another vehicle or pedestrian; commits a Class B infraction.

    IC 9-21-8-55 Aggressive driving Sec. 55. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement official engaged in the law enforcement official's official duties. (b) For purposes of this section, a person engages in aggressive driving if, during one (1) episode of continuous driving of a vehicle, the person does or commits at least three (3) of the following:
    ...
    (9) Repeatedly flashing the vehicle's headlights.
     

    cbhausen

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    Wow, shows how things can go bad really fast... You only get to die once. Don't do it by showing your ass to a cop (or anyone else for that matter). Kid had been watching too many YouTube videos.

    This is all a result of the prevailing attitude towards cops fomented by the current Administration and its minions, IMO.
     

    T.Lex

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    Hinges on the word repeatedly. ..

    Yes, and in Indiana, turning on the brights, then immediately dimming them would actually comply with 9-21-8-51. And the aggressive driving refers to "headlights" which is arguable different from the bright setting of the headlights.

    I know of no Indiana case on this issue, but perhaps KF or Fargo would have something handy.
     

    Dead Duck

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    Out of curiosity, do you feel anything for the family of the young man?

    Sure, Kind of, Depends.
    Who coached the kid about what to do during traffic stops? If it was the dad, then he failed and should blame himself. If he truly did all he could to teach him correctly and his kid just blew it or misunderstood him on how to act, then yes, I would feel bad for the dad.

    Now - who coached the kid on hitting cops during a traffic stop? :dunno:
     

    T.Lex

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    Sure, Kind of, Depends.
    Who coached the kid about what to do during traffic stops? If it was the dad, then he failed and should blame himself. If he truly did all he could to teach him correctly and his kid just blew it or misunderstood him on how to act, then yes, I would feel bad for the dad.

    Now - who coached the kid on hitting cops during a traffic stop? :dunno:

    Probably no one, or he would've been more effective. (Even taking into account the ambulance video.) Fight or flight is a powerful instinct.

    Now - who coached the officer that escalation was the only direction to go?

    ETA:
    Full disclosure - I am well and truly conflicted over this one. For both personal and public reasons, I guess.
     

    17 squirrel

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    I will never understand why so few leo's have training in hand to hand / Martial Art skills.
    99.9% of the public can be brought to their knees very quickly with a few simple moves. And the situation is quickly and safely brought under control. And its a plus for the leo, he gets to avoid cuts, scrapes, ruined uniforms and his buddies busting on him in the locker room for letting a kid get the better of him. Plus he gets to hear a grown man squeel like a little girl when pressure is applied to the suspect. The public gennerally does not know how to fight or gain control of a souring situation. It's always a wrestling match. And it doesn't have to be one.
    And sometimes the ending is bad, someone ends up being shot and it so easily could have been avoided on so many occasions.
     

    T.Lex

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    Assessment of Michigan rules on flashing brights:
    http://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=32217

    Oddly enough, there are no laws on the books concerning flashing your brights at other drivers. According to a police sergeant in a 2011 story from MLive, the legality of flashing your brights comes down to specific facts.

    Quoted link:
    http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/traffic_talk_should_you_turn_o.html
    "Philosophically, this is a bit of difficulty for me," Church said. "On one hand, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because an oncoming motorist is blinding you with his or her lights does not mean that you may return the favor."
    "On the other hand," he said. "A quick flash of the brights probably will not blind them, and they may simply need a reminder to dim their head lights."
    That being said, Church said "flashing" the headlights does violate the letter of the law if done within 500 feet.
    But, an officer could issue a motorist a ticket for it, he said.
    In fact, Church tells me he has been on the opposite side of the situation reader, Suzi, found herself in.
    "I have actually made traffic stops because people flashed their lights at my patrol car," he said. "They thought that my brights were on even though they were not. I never wrote anyone a ticket under those circumstances, but I did arrest a couple of drunk drivers that way."

    Another legal phrase - "arbitrary and capricious" - comes to mind.
     

    SSGSAD

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    Ok. Found a couple IC cites:

    IC 9-21-8-51 Blinding lights; failure to dim; Class B infraction Sec. 51. A person who: (1) operates a vehicle; and (2) fails to dim bright or blinding lights when meeting another vehicle or pedestrian; commits a Class B infraction.

    IC 9-21-8-55 Aggressive driving Sec. 55. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement official engaged in the law enforcement official's official duties. (b) For purposes of this section, a person engages in aggressive driving if, during one (1) episode of continuous driving of a vehicle, the person does or commits at least three (3) of the following:
    ...
    (9) Repeatedly flashing the vehicle's headlights.

    Well, there is a lot of people out there doing a class B infraction.......

    Bright lights, bother me, and I flash my brights a lot ..... very few people dim .....
     
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