NY: Carhartt Jacket stops four bullets?

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  • Alamo

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    Drunk stagehand wielding knife shot dead by cops in Midtown | New York Post
    NYPD checking ammo after knifeman?s jacket stops cops? bullets | New York Post

    A sergeant and an officer fired a total of nine rounds at 46-year-old Garry Conrad Wednesday, with one of the shots killing the depressed Broadway stagehand who refused to drop the blade at West 49th Street and Eighth Avenue.

    Four of the bullets got lodged in Conrad’s Carhartt jacket, sources said, adding that he was not wearing bulletproof vest.

    Another shot grazed the wrist of bystander Lauran Code, a 46-year-old lingerie designer from California.


    Mr. Knifeguy seems to have a history of mental problems, alcohol problems, and arrests for violent crimes problems. ("'He was known as Crazy Garry,' a theater worker said.") Would not be surprised if he is actually homeless and like a lot of those folks, wearing several layers of clothing. Still, that's a pretty big failure.

    Also, if you take a Spyderco and unfold it, it becomes an "8-inch" knife in news articles.
     

    Guncraft

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    As a training point for all of us who carry firearms for protection, we must remember that the terminal performance of bullets can be quite unpredictable. Train to assess the effectiveness of the force you are applying. If the life-threatening behavior does not stop, choose a different target location (ie - transition from center mass to pelvic girdle or to the head if necessary). If what you are currently doing isn't working, change what you are doing.

    I dealt with a guy a couple months ago who's thumb had several metal pins sticking out of it and this contraption was holding everything in place. His thumb was intact and looked a little beat-up, but otherwise it was normal in appearance. I asked him what had happened. He was involved in a shooting downtown (I confirmed this after I spoke with him) where he was shot at nearly point-blank range with a 40S&W round. He threw his hands up in defense and the bullet struck the bone in his thumb. The bullet, and pieces of the bone, turned into shrapnel. He lifted his shirt and it looked like he had taken a load of #7 shot to the chest. His chest was peppered with scabbed-over holes. He said that none of the bullet fragments entered his chest cavity. Definitely not what I expected to see happen, but a good training experience nonetheless.

    Andy
     

    ghuns

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    Frosty

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    As a training point for all of us who carry firearms for protection, we must remember that the terminal performance of bullets can be quite unpredictable. Train to assess the effectiveness of the force you are applying. If the life-threatening behavior does not stop, choose a different target location (ie - transition from center mass to pelvic girdle or to the head if necessary). If what you are currently doing isn't working, change what you are doing.

    I dealt with a guy a couple months ago who's thumb had several metal pins sticking out of it and this contraption was holding everything in place. His thumb was intact and looked a little beat-up, but otherwise it was normal in appearance. I asked him what had happened. He was involved in a shooting downtown (I confirmed this after I spoke with him) where he was shot at nearly point-blank range with a 40S&W round. He threw his hands up in defense and the bullet struck the bone in his thumb. The bullet, and pieces of the bone, turned into shrapnel. He lifted his shirt and it looked like he had taken a load of #7 shot to the chest. His chest was peppered with scabbed-over holes. He said that none of the bullet fragments entered his chest cavity. Definitely not what I expected to see happen, but a good training experience nonetheless.

    Andy
    much like a small twig deflecting a light rifle round.
     

    Alamo

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    Wonder what the issue ammunition was? I'm going to guess some variety of hollowpoint.

    I did some googling around, and it appears NYPD has been issuing 124gr +P Speer Gold Dots for duty ammo for a long time now.

    I still think it's going to turn out he was wearing a lot of heavy clothing, possibly with some glancing angle hits.
     

    in625shooter

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    Curious and going on a limb here but
    could have been his pockets etc were fullnos items and that's where the rounds hit???

    As far as defects in the bullet I doubt it, but maybe the loadings or powder.

    Be interesting to see what they find out. HST anyone LOL
     

    Leadeye

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    I remember shooting that hot steel jacketed Chezk stuff back in the 80s, I don't think it stopped for anything.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    I remember posting a few weeks ago about varying ammo with FMJs and HPs to defeat intermediate barriers. I was scoffed at. Will the scoffers rethink their scoffing?

    I don't think I was one of the original scoffers, but will scoff now. In 9mm, the bonded hollowpoints tend to penetrate further through intermediate barriers than FMJ as the FMJ isn't loaded as hot and the jackets shed, reducing mass from an already light round. I've seen 9mm ball stopped by aluminum siding, so it wouldn't be my go to for barrier penetration, and it relies heavily on shot placement for a stop. I've had loooots of folks with 9mm ball in their pelvis or torso walking around talking about current events.

    To me, carrying FMJ in duty calibers because of a failure of the HP in once instance is like not wearing a seat belt because one guy got trapped in a burning car. .380, meh, maybe. Revolver calibers, wadcutters tend to be nastier than FMJ in their wound channel, so if it's a barrel length or caliber that won't reliably expand you can use the wadcutter load for lighter recoil and a better effect in meat.
     

    Slawburger

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    I wonder if Tractor Supply is open? I feel the sudden need for a new Carhartt jacket.

    Actually, I had one for many years. I don't think it was bulletproof but it did a fine job on thorns and stickers in the woods.
     

    SmileDocHill

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    This is all just a ploy to ban carhartt jackets. First convince them it's bulletproof then ban bulletproof jackets. They don't want such rural looking attire in their refined progressive city.
     

    Frosty

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    This is all just a ploy to ban carhartt jackets. First convince them it's bulletproof then ban bulletproof jackets. They don't want such rural looking attire in their refined progressive city.
    Let them ban them, then I can sell all my pre-ban carhartt jackets on armslist to New York guys wanting light body armor! I'll be rich!
     

    BugI02

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    I don't think I was one of the original scoffers, but will scoff now. In 9mm, the bonded hollowpoints tend to penetrate further through intermediate barriers than FMJ as the FMJ isn't loaded as hot and the jackets shed, reducing mass from an already light round. I've seen 9mm ball stopped by aluminum siding, so it wouldn't be my go to for barrier penetration, and it relies heavily on shot placement for a stop. I've had loooots of folks with 9mm ball in their pelvis or torso walking around talking about current events.

    To me, carrying FMJ in duty calibers because of a failure of the HP in once instance is like not wearing a seat belt because one guy got trapped in a burning car. .380, meh, maybe. Revolver calibers, wadcutters tend to be nastier than FMJ in their wound channel, so if it's a barrel length or caliber that won't reliably expand you can use the wadcutter load for lighter recoil and a better effect in meat.


    BBI do you have any info about CorBon powerball ammo (I got some in a deal). Where the cavity would be on a normal JHP the area is filled with a (I believe) fiberglas ball. The idea is that it prevents the cavity from filling up with clothing material (such as denim or carharrt stuff) and beginning premature expansion of the round. I'm a bit skeptical because including the powerball detracts from the weight of the rest of the bullet and the fiberglas ball seems like it would mimic the effects of a cavity filled with material (premature expansion) on contact with something heavy like denim or carharrt. These things are driven pretty hard (1450fps for 115gr 38SA) but haven't found much real world info on them. Lot of hageographic stuff from CorBon themselves
     
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