Do the military actually use the select fire setting on their rifles?

[Excalibur]

In a recent debate I had with someone, I went with the general knowledge that the US military trains the troops to never use the burst/full auto setting on their rifles. That only machine gunners are allowed to shoot the full auto but even then in small bursts.

So I want to know from any military vets here, especially any combat vets. Have you ever fired your rifle in the burst/auto setting in combat before or know that there are times when it is needed?

I only ask so I know more and if there is a practical use for full auto in a combat rifle.

 

[halfmileharry]

There are multiple uses for full auto.
I think the lack of training in full mode is to save a couple of boolits so the military doesn't have to do the paperwork on the ammo usage and pay for more than is absolutely required. Who cares if the training is actually competent.

 

[in625shooter]

Other than some courses of fire on a qualifications course hardly ever.

 

[BigMoose]

A lot of National guard rifles had a metal piece put in between the pistol grip and the receiver that would block the full auto selection.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

In the military, I trained with burst mode a hand full of times. Our M-16s were not fully auto, just safe/semi/3-round burst. On the SAW, it was either "off" or "on", so it was always full auto. We were not trained to "never" use it, and IIRC we the M16 guys were told to use it during urban training. I was a SAW gunner then and may not be correct.

With DynCorp, we had safe/semi/full, but never trained with full and I never had any reason to use it for real. The .50 cals were full auto, but we trained for 5-8 round bursts, with the understanding a truck bomb was our most likely target and not suppressing fire.

 

[Winamac]

Well our weapons we carried/used in Afghanistan(M-16/M-4) only had semi auto and three round burst settings. Most current M-16 and M-4 military weapons usually do not have a full auto (rock-n-roll) setting on them any longer. Now back in the early 80's when I first went in they did, but most of those weapons were Vietnam era weapons. Depending on the scenario we trained using both semi-auto and three round burst setting while at combat skills at Ft.McCoy before going over. In country...it just depended on the person what setting they used. This is just my experience other may have different ones.

 

[Joniki]

Times sure have changed.

 

[actaeon277]

Well, I was a submariner, so I can only speak to my experience, which is not much.
When we had a SEAL contingent on board, they're rifles were single or full auto. This was just before the 3 round burst came out, or it was out and the SEALs were exempt.
But when we surfaced and they practiced, I never saw much "suppressing" fire. It seemed to be 3 to 5 round bursts, or 1 round shots.
I did witness one fire full auto when one of my shipmates stated that the rifle was uncontrollable on full auto. My shipmate for the record, was wrong.

When they allowed ship's crew to fire some, to blow off steam, we were instructed to keep it to 3 to 5 round bursts.
Except when I fired the full auto 9mm pistol. OOOOOOOohhhhhhhhhhh. That was awesome.
The SEAL told me, after 3 rounds it would be off target. It pulled up and to the right. So start low left.
He said to limit it to 3 rounds because it would be off target, and because IT WAS HIS GUN, so he got to make the rules.
And he was right.



I'm the guy in the submarine "poopy suit" and the moustache.
Yes, the SEAL has his arm on me.
SEALs got nervous when ship's crew handled weapons for some reason.
Could be because of our non-existent training in small arms.
I fired more that day than I did in the 6 years.
And no, they didn't let us fire the grenade launcher.

 

[Woobie]

I've done it to burn ammo. If people aren't allowed, that is their commander's discretion. There are some uses, but they're pretty specific. Ultimately, it is to gain fire superiority. An enemy is suppressed through accuracy and volume of fire. A lot of rounds on target, basically. Sometimes the situation requires greater emphasis on accuracy, sometimes on volume. But both are always important. One shot a day, or 1 million shots a mile away will accomplish nothing. The burst function is for those times when accuracy is not as important, but volume is at a premium. Possible occasions for use:

-React to ambush
-Conduct ambush ("mad minute")
-Break contact
-Sometimes in base of fire

But often the benefits of firing three times the bullets at the enemy are outweighed by losing ammunition at 3x the rate, and only 1 in 3 of those being aimed.

Lastly, and why I hate the burst function: it complicates the trigger mechanism, and causes a number of different sear/hammer engagement points. The effect of this is multiple trigger pull weights. On one shot you will have a 5.5 lb. trigger pull, and the next you might have an 11 lb. pull. That might be followed by an 8 or 9 lb. pull. It requires quite a bit of discipline to concentrate and follow through these multiple trigger pulls when making more precise shots.

 

[Brad69]

So the practical use of auto fire is for machine guns not M16,s on burst. The M16 series rifle has 3 round burst since the M16A2 I have not seen an A1 or M16 sine about 1995 or so. Some if not all of the M4A1 improved M4 are full auto.
So that being said the three round burst and full auto are rarely used in training or combat in my experience then only for a purpose.

In some combat situations, the use of automatic or burst fire can improve survivability and enhance mission accomplishment. Clearing buildings, final assaults, FPF, and ambushes may require limited use ofautomatic or burst fire.


Soldiers must be taught the advantages and disadvantages of automatic and burst firing so they know when it should be used. Without this knowledge,Soldiers tend to switch to the automatic or burst fire mode in life-threatening situations.




Here is some machine gun knowledge to share with your friends just memorize it and bust out with in normal conversation!

You have to understand the different rates of fire.

Sustained rate of fire
Sustained fire for the M249 is 85 rounds per minute in bursts of 3 to 5 rounds. The M60 and M240B are 100 rounds per minute in bursts of 6 to 9 rounds. The gunner pauses 4 to 5 seconds between bursts. The barrel should be changed after firing at sustained rate for 10 minutes. This is the normal rate of fire for the gunner

Rapid fire
Rapid fire for the M249, M60, and M240B gunner is 200 rounds per minute in bursts of (6 to 8 M249) 10 to 12 rounds. The gunner pauses 2 to 3 seconds between bursts. The barrel should be changed after firing at a rapid rate for 2 minutes. This procedure provides for an exceptionally high volume of fire, but for only a short period.

Cyclic rate of fire
Cyclic fire uses the most ammunition that can be used in 1 minute. The cyclic rate of fire with the machine gun is achieved when the trigger is held to the rear and ammunition is fed into the weapon uninterrupted for one minute. Normal cyclic rate of fire for the M249 is 850 rounds, M60 is 550 rounds, and for the M240B it is 650 to 950 rounds. Always change the barrel after firing at cyclic rate for 1 minute. This procedure provides the highest volume of fire that the machine gun can fire, but this adversely affects the machine gun, and should only be fired in combat under emergency purposes only.

 

[Woobie]

A lot of National guard rifles had a metal piece put in between the pistol grip and the receiver that would block the full auto selection.

Seriously? Sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Woobie]

Here is some machine gun knowledge to share with your friends just memorize it and bust out with in normal conversation!

You have to understand the different rates of fire.

Sustained rate of fire
Sustained fire for the M249 is 85 rounds per minute in bursts of 3 to 5 rounds. The M60 and M240B are 100 rounds per minute in bursts of 6 to 9 rounds. The gunner pauses 4 to 5 seconds between bursts. The barrel should be changed after firing at sustained rate for 10 minutes. This is the normal rate of fire for the gunner

Rapid fire
Rapid fire for the M249, M60, and M240B gunner is 200 rounds per minute in bursts of (6 to 8 M249) 10 to 12 rounds. The gunner pauses 2 to 3 seconds between bursts. The barrel should be changed after firing at a rapid rate for 2 minutes. This procedure provides for an exceptionally high volume of fire, but for only a short period.

Cyclic rate of fire
Cyclic fire uses the most ammunition that can be used in 1 minute. The cyclic rate of fire with the machine gun is achieved when the trigger is held to the rear and ammunition is fed into the weapon uninterrupted for one minute. Normal cyclic rate of fire for the M249 is 850 rounds, M60 is 550 rounds, and for the M240B it is 650 to 950 rounds. Always change the barrel after firing at cyclic rate for 1 minute. This procedure provides the highest volume of fire that the machine gun can fire, but this adversely affects the machine gun, and should only be fired in combat under emergency purposes only.

Thus saith FM 3-22.68. Amen


Oh, and you can't change rate of fire on the 240's anymore. Worthless feature. Now they have a one position has block set for 650 rpm.

 

[Brad69]

What you can,t flip that lever and go really full auto!
Glad I retired before that happened!

 

[Woobie]

What you can,t flip that lever and go really full auto!
Glad I retired before that happened!

I have something else to tell you, but I'm not sure how.

 

[Woobie]

You can't set headspace and timing on the new M2's.

 

[Bsj425]

Outside of training and burning up ammo so we didn't have to turn it back in to the ASP, we never used burst. We weren't told that we couldn't or wasn't allowed but it's just not practical in a firefight. There are a couple of battle drills that call for high volume of fire but those rarely happen in real life like they do in training.

 

[red_zr24x4]

Except when I fired the full auto 9mm pistol. OOOOOOOohhhhhhhhhhh. That was awesome.
The SEAL told me, after 3 rounds it would be off target. It pulled up and to the right. So start low left.
He said to limit it to 3 rounds because it would be off target, and because IT WAS HIS GUN, so he got to make the rules.
And he was right.

Not to get off topic, but I've gotten to use a glock 18 before, and you arnt kidding.
One old guy said he could be in a phone booth with someone, and the glock , and not hit them once. Cause she climbs hard and fast.

 

[Brad69]

Ahhh no headspace and timing what is the world coming too!
How are they going survive? Soldiers have been setting headspace and timing since before WW2 (often incorrectly).
Now modern Soldiers weapons don't even need worked on before you fire it.

BTW for those who have never set it.
You never really knew if you had it right till you fired it.

 

[indyjoe]

Not to get off topic, but I've gotten to use a glock 18 before, and you arnt kidding.
One old guy said he could be in a phone booth with someone, and the glock , and not hit them once. Cause she climbs hard and fast.

A shoulder stock seems to be the only way to make that work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub4OswUhLwo

Or use a foregrip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11fcg543Jow

Or not.

 

[actaeon277]

Not to get off topic, but I've gotten to use a glock 18 before, and you arnt kidding.
One old guy said he could be in a phone booth with someone, and the glock , and not hit them once. Cause she climbs hard and fast.

Well, the SEALs I saw looked like they could make their weapons roll over and dance, even sing.
But, they kinda got to fire the **** out of their stuff.
In the 80s, it was hard to get ammo, budgets.
But the SEALs, they got what they wanted.
And they had their armorers that would modify stuff that I'm sure regular Army would have a problem with.
They had 1st and 2nd generation NVGs, when Army only had a few NVGs to distribute to select personnel.
I got to help carry down their load one time to the "armory", which was #1 and 2 missile tubes. And they even had hand held SAMs, but I can't remember which one. Just thought it was fricking awesome.
Of course, I wouldn't think that if I was using that crap because someone was using it against me.

But, they were a little out of their element when bad submarine stuff happened, and they were just passengers while ship's crew scurried around trying to stop us from dying.