Ruffled Feathers

[Albertson's]

Not sure if this has been covered before or not, but wanted to bring it up. I stepped out to grab a late lunch, when I returned my manager told me he saw two cars pull into the parking lot, and sit there with their lights on for a few minutes talking. He then saw one guy get out, and pull an AR out of his vehicle, and hand it over to the other guy. When he (manager) went out to see what was going on, he was informed that they had met here to buy/sell the gun, that it was a good 1/2 ways point, one guy lived in Fort Wayne, the other in Bourbon. They were told they could not do the transaction here, as we are a licensed dealer, and that all firearm transfers on our property have to be done via 4473, and that we would be glad to facilitate the private party transfer for them. Neither party seemed to understand, and left upset. One guy, as he was pulling away, stated the he was sorry he had disrupted our business. Not sure where that came from, as he had in no way disrupted anything, it has actually been a pretty slow Thursday, and my manager was happy to get an excuse to take another smoke break!

I realize that not everybody wants to fill out the 4473, nor do they want to pay the transfer fee that we, as well as other gun shops charge, but COME ON!!! Will somebody please help me understand these guys point of view? Maybe we should have offered to do the transfer for free?

Kirk

 

[Alpo]

Private sales at an FFL parking lot. Ballsy. They can go to a police station and do the transaction.

 

[femurphy77]

I know a guy that worked at a gun shop and performed several parking lot deals. Bad form in his case, what's the problem in the OP's case? If both participants were meeting at halfway perhaps they would have ended their transaction with a trip inside your shop and maybe even have made a purchase with the sellers new found riches or in the case of the buyer perhaps an accessory or two for his newly gained possession? Or maybe I'm growing soft and naïve in my old age.

 

[bwframe]

I've seen gun store parking lots readily recommended as "safe" places to do private trades.

Do other gun stores feel the same as Albertsons about their parking lots?

 

[71silverbullet]

His point of view was: they made a deal on line, and both agreed to meet at a mid-way point for each of them. Both of them wanted to do it in a public place so as not as likely for one of them to get ripped off\robbed, and not draw unwanted attention by holding a gun in public. Hence, gun store parking lot. no big deal,happens all the time. They didn't know, and neither did I, that ALL firearm sales on your property had to be done via 4473, and probably thought you were sticking your nose in their business, and trying to profit off of his sale.

 

[Sniper 79]

What's to understand? You stuck your nose in someone else's business. It went over like a turd in a punch bowl.

On your defense it is your private lot and you can dictate what goes on. Being an FFL and offering to do a transfer for them was the cherry on top! Hilarious!

 

[223 Gunner]

I learned a long time ago that it is in very poor etiquette to do a private sale in the parking lot of a gun shop.
But having myself bought and sold guns in parking lots before, I have had people suggest going to a shops parking lot, because it less likely that people would be freaked out at the sight of a gun.
I personally try and pick a place that may be closed or where there is less foot traffic for proper inspection of a firearm.

I have done a deal with another member on here that wanted me to meet him at Bradis. I did in their side lot, and as luck would have it, one of their employees was coming to work or returning from a break or whatever it was.
He was not very polite about asking us to leave, we did and went to the strip mall right across the street, which is where I suggest meeting when someone wants me to meet them at Bradis.

I do respect the property of a gun shop.

 

[churchmouse]

I learned a long time ago that it is in very poor etiquette to do a private sale in the parking lot of a gun shop

I do respect the property of a gun shop.

As we all should. This is a federal thing by the way.

 

[femurphy77]

I wasn't aware that any transaction on the property had to 4473, I always figured it only applied to store sales. Of course I've never had a private sale at such a location.

 

[bwframe]

Anyone have a link to the actual law on this?

 

[DanVoils]

I wasn't aware that any transaction on the property had to 4473, I always figured it only applied to store sales. Of course I've never had a private sale at such a location.

I'm thinking this is more a store rule than an ATF rule. Any links to the BATFE ruling? I agree it's poor etiquette unless the store says it's okay.
Dan

 

[Albertson's]

I called our ATF branch in South Bend prior to posting this thread, as some laws/rules have changed in the 16 years we have had our FFL, I wanted to make sure this was still the case. Was told ABSOLUTELY any transaction that involved transfer of ownership with regards to firearms on our premises must have a 4473 to go along with it. Said without that black and white line, how would ATF determine which transactions require 4473 and which ones do not? When asked to define "premises" was told ind this case, property lines.

My concern was not monetary, as some have suggested, rather the requirements of maintaining our FFL, which allows me to maintain my business, and therefore put food on my table, clothes on my children, their college tuition, gas in my car, beer in my hand...

 

[71silverbullet]

I called our ATF branch in South Bend prior to posting this thread, as some laws/rules have changed in the 16 years we have had our FFL, I wanted to make sure this was still the case. Was told ABSOLUTELY any transaction that involved transfer of ownership with regards to firearms on our premises must have a 4473 to go along with it. Said without that black and white line, how would ATF determine which transactions require 4473 and which ones do not? When asked to define "premises" was told ind this case, property lines.

My concern was not monetary, as some have suggested, rather the requirements of maintaining our FFL, which allows me to maintain my business, and therefore put food on my table, clothes on my children, their college tuition, gas in my car, beer in my hand...

I'm not accusing you of trying to gain from it, just stating that that's likely what he was thinking. Aside from being poor etiquette, it seems like a good place.

 

[T.Lex]

Anyone have a link to the actual law on this?

I called our ATF branch in South Bend prior to posting this thread, as some laws/rules have changed in the 16 years we have had our FFL, I wanted to make sure this was still the case. Was told ABSOLUTELY any transaction that involved transfer of ownership with regards to firearms on our premises must have a 4473 to go along with it. Said without that black and white line, how would ATF determine which transactions require 4473 and which ones do not? When asked to define "premises" was told ind this case, property lines.

My concern was not monetary, as some have suggested, rather the requirements of maintaining our FFL, which allows me to maintain my business, and therefore put food on my table, clothes on my children, their college tuition, gas in my car, beer in my hand...

I understand that the ATF person you talked to might have a certain opinion, but if they cannot cite a statute/rule/regulation, then it is just an opinion.

Since this isn't an OTC transaction, they must only be talking about part II. For that, 27 CFR 478.124(f) does not address property lines, premises, or anything like that (as I recall). "Business premises" is defined in the definition section, but apparently not used in the 4473 related part. The regulations all seem to assume the dealer is a party to the transaction.

Store rules can be store rules, but this does not appear to be supported by laws or regulations.

 

[d.kaufman]

I've done several deals at my local Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, and Cabelas. In the parking lot of course and a few of them were with other Ingo members. Was always a halfway point for each of us and a public location. I don't see a big deal in it. Might be more of a deal if it was a small mom and pop shop, but i probably wouldn't do a transaction at a small firearms only dealer. Like another poster stated is a good possibility that they ended up losing accessory or ammo sales to the buyer and maybe a new gun to the seller

 

[Gluemanz28]

I haven't done any parking lot gun deals at a gun shop but I have bought brass and bullets from an INGO member at one. We both went inside and bought stuff. The shop was a Dillon Dealer

 

[MCgrease08]

I made a deal for a rifle in the parking lot of an LGS, but I made sure to go inside, buy 2 boxes of ammo from them plus 30 minutes of range time to run the gun before I bought it.

I certainly paid more for the ammo and range time then I would have on their transfer fee.

After I was satisfied we agreed on a price. The seller carried the rifle out of the range directly to my car and I handed him the cash.

 

[DanVoils]

I understand that the ATF person you talked to might have a certain opinion, but if they cannot cite a statute/rule/regulation, then it is just an opinion.

Since this isn't an OTC transaction, they must only be talking about part II. For that, 27 CFR 478.124(f) does not address property lines, premises, or anything like that (as I recall). "Business premises" is defined in the definition section, but apparently not used in the 4473 related part. The regulations all seem to assume the dealer is a party to the transaction.

Store rules can be store rules, but this does not appear to be supported by laws or regulations.

Precisely what I was thinking.
Dan

 

[bwframe]

I totally respect the rights of a business to make rules for their property. I would never do anything to go against this.

That said, specifics on this actual law are important. As stated above, many of us have used the parking lots of FFL dealers as places to come from different locations to meet for trades. Places like Gander, Cabelas, Rural King, a host of FFL/shooting ranges, not to mention gun shows like the 1500 are places of concern for possible illegal transactions.

I'm sure no one here would ever err on the side of law breaking. I certainly don't want to either.

 

[M67]

There's a Bourbon Indiana?