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  1. #111
    Professional Plinker VERT's Avatar
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    The Canadians tell us ACTS and PROVE it safe:

    The Vital Four ACTS of Firearm Safety - Royal Canadian Mounted Police
    "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side kid." - Han Solo

  2. #112
    INGO Homebrewer JettaKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwframe View Post
    Exactly. Following Rule #1, there is no such thing as "isn't loaded," as far as gun handling goes.
    No justification, as was explained by the OP of that thread.
    Yin and Yang - if there's a loaded, then there's an unloaded.

    Plus, I just can't get past the concept of always loaded, it's a lie and an obvious impossibility. My brain (and a lot of other brains) can't handle it.


    Can we at least all agree that Col. Cooper wasn't the best wordsmith or teacher? I used to struggle a bit when reading his articles... plus all those rote condition codes...

  3. #113
    Plinker EPeter213's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VERT View Post
    The Canadians tell us ACTS and PROVE it safe:

    The Vital Four ACTS of Firearm Safety - Royal Canadian Mounted Police
    Awesome. I find no fault with these rules.
    "I aligned him with Time's Arrow" - Greyboar

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbhausen View Post
    But there is such a thing as an unloaded firearm and we all know it. You're making my point for me. It doesn't matter if it's loaded or not! Stop pointing your damned guns at things you don't want to shoot!
    You're beginning to sound agitated. Lot's of potty words and red letters and all caps. Didn't you want the conversation?

    I hear all the time on INGO that "all guns are always loaded." I think that may be a bit of a bastardization of the "treat every weapon as if it were loaded." Let's assume that we want to dry fire. Now, we should ensure that we don't have a loaded gun, but if we treat it as if it were loaded, we wouldn't have any real issue if there was a bullet in the chamber when we pulled the trigger for the first time. The weapon would be pointed in such a direction that we would still be safe. Let's say we want to disassemble our Glock. Again, we should check the thing to ensure it isn't loaded. Even then we'll point it in a safe direction should it actually go bang, nothing of significance will happen. Maybe a bit of ringing in your ears.

    As every Marine riflemen has been taught

    Treat every weapon as if it were loaded
    Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot
    Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire
    Keep the weapon on safe until you intend to fire.

    But what do they know?

    Once you've disassembled a rifle/pistol whatever and it cannot function as a firearm it is no longer considered a weapon. You can point the barrel of an M9 anywhere you want so long as it is not still attached to an assembled pistol.
    raison cookies that look like choc chip is why I have trust issues

  5. #115
    I like what the OP is driving to. How do we as responsible gun owners translate gun safety to those who are new or those who are ignorant. I don't believe that people get confused about the four rules or the three rules because most (not all) feel like "hey I know how to be safe and I follow whatever so I am safe". Kind of like when you fly a lot and ignore the flight attendant giving the safety brief before take off. How many new gun owners ever even get training of any sort? Where will they even learn the "rules" unless they look into it or read something. We are talking about a culture of people that play with plastic toy guns as kids and then grow up to hold real ones, how much of when they were kids bleeds into how they handle guns as adults? I believe if you really want to look at creating an atmosphere of safety through out the community you need to start at the point of sale. The person selling that gun should take the time to educate. How many of you have gone to a gun store and have had a person pointing a gun at you or waving it around with sales person just sitting there with the is my shift over yet look on their face quietly not saying a word?

    Rules are great but as was pointed out in this thread, most NDs happen with the rules not even fitting the circumstance (pocket carry discharge, Holster discharge, etc). We need best practices, not a set of rules but rather a holistic approach to safe handling and use. We need to ensure that those best practices are translated to future gun owners at the point of sale, not weeks or months later when the gun is used as a prop for a stupid wedding picture.

    Short story, my brother wanted to buy a S&W M&P Shield. I told him lets go together and handle one so you can see if it would be a good fit for you. So we went to one of those large box stores that sells guns and the attendant pulled one from the cabinet but before he handed it to my brother he looked at him and gave him direction and guidance on where he should point it, how he should test it (dry fire), and a few other tips. Never once did I say, hey we know, don't need to hear it but rather listened and all I could think of was how great that this sales person was taking the time to educate rather than just hand a deadly weapon off with little more than a set of rules and a box of ammo.

    Rules are great, teaching is essential, learning is required. Too often those we are teaching aren't willing to learn
    Those who abjure violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf - George Orwell

  6. #116
    INGO Homebrewer JettaKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hog slayer View Post
    As every Marine riflemen has been taught

    Treat every weapon as if it were loaded
    Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot
    Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire
    Keep the weapon on safe until you intend to fire.

    But what do they know?
    They know how to teach Marines to, in essence, kill and break stuff effectively.


    Again, this whole argument isn't about which rules are better for any one person, or group of people, - by all means stick with what works best for you, but what do we teach to others with little or no gun training, especially those that aren't Marines like Susie Sixguns who bought a Charter Arms .38 because it comes in purple?


    This is the question at hand; let's try and stick to it.


    PS - What was taught to every Marine that came before they adopted Col. Cooper's rules? Why did they change? Was it because there was a more teachable, effective method?

  7. #117
    Professional Plinker VERT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JettaKnight View Post
    PS - What was taught to every Marine that came before they adopted Col. Cooper's rules? Why did they change? Was it because there was a more teachable, effective method?
    Before Col. Cooper? Probably something similar to what was in older text.

    https://www.amazon.com/rifle-revolve.../dp/B00087A76C
    "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side kid." - Han Solo

  8. #118
    Expert hog slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JettaKnight View Post
    They know how to teach Marines to, in essence, kill and break stuff effectively.


    Again, this whole argument isn't about which rules are better for any one person, or group of people, - by all means stick with what works best for you, but what do we teach to others with little or no gun training, especially those that aren't Marines like Susie Sixguns who bought a Charter Arms .38 because it comes in purple?


    This is the question at hand; let's try and stick to it.


    PS - What was taught to every Marine that came before they adopted Col. Cooper's rules? Why did they change? Was it because there was a more teachable, effective method?
    I'm trying to locate a copy of the old manual. That's going far enough back that I haven't had any luck, yet. I do understand your point, but it will be interesting to see what was taught, if anything. I utilize the Marine reference often because they, along with the rest of our military force and much of our police forces use these 4 basic rules for some reason. A bunch of folks who use firearms recreation-ally have a different opinion. That seems quite common on INGO, and is representative of many encounters outside the martial arena. I'm sorry if I do not add good value to this discussion. I'll go back to playing in my sandbox.

    Did I keep things on track with the below (my initial post)? What's the point if we change the rules every time we repeat them?

    ...

    I hear all the time on INGO that "all guns are always loaded." I think that may be a bit of a bastardization of the "treat every weapon as if it were loaded." Let's assume that we want to dry fire. Now, we should ensure that we don't have a loaded gun, but if we treat it as if it were loaded, we wouldn't have any real issue if there was a bullet in the chamber when we pulled the trigger for the first time. The weapon would be pointed in such a direction that we would still be safe. Let's say we want to disassemble our Glock. Again, we should check the thing to ensure it isn't loaded. Even then we'll point it in a safe direction should it actually go bang, nothing of significance will happen. Maybe a bit of ringing in your ears.

    ...

    Once you've disassembled a rifle/pistol whatever and it cannot function as a firearm it is no longer considered a weapon. You can point the barrel of an M9 anywhere you want so long as it is not still attached to an assembled pistol.


    raison cookies that look like choc chip is why I have trust issues

  9. #119
    Plinker EPeter213's Avatar
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    Thank you for a well worded and thoughtful response, Tango. I believe that is exactly what cb was asking for with his op.

    As for the military/police using the four rules effectively, I think it may be due to the training environment. Basic training and police academy environments are vastly different from a Five minute, or even eight hour, safety course.

    If you have the time, and a captive audience to create the mindset asked for with Cooper's 1, I am certain it is much more effective.
    Last edited by EPeter213; 1 Week Ago at 17:46.
    "I aligned him with Time's Arrow" - Greyboar

  10. #120
    Marksman TheJoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VERT View Post
    The Canadians tell us ACTS and PROVE it safe:

    The Vital Four ACTS of Firearm Safety - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

    Quote Originally Posted by indiucky View Post
    ATM and I consider INGO Planet Fitness for our noggins....

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