The Great NRA 3 Rules vs. Cooper's 4 Rules Debate

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  • cbhausen

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    Now that I have your attention, you can choose to go on or leave and stay away. This subject comes up a lot on INGO, usually in threads about negligent shootings. I thought I would give it a place of its own.

    As many of you know, I used to be a four rules guy until I critically examined the four rules and I now believe NRA's three rules are superior because they succinctly describe observable and correctable behaviors that ensure safe gun handling.

    For your reading pleasure (or agony!) I provide a link supporting my position:

    https://activeselfprotection.com/wh...ing_wp_cron=1497472765.3332519531250000000000

    Can we possibly discuss this in a civil and grown-up manner without calling each other spear carriers or other derogatory terms?

    Bottom line is we all want to be safe with our firearms and we want those around us to be safe. We want to use the best methods available to teach others how to be safe as well. How we get there should be discussed openly and in a spirited fashion without people acting like they are protecting their own turf. This isn't about Colonel Jeff Cooper, Hickok45, or anyone else. It's about keeping people safe.

    Please engage only if you have something constructive and on-topic to add. Thanks.
     

    EPeter213

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    I'll start off by giving a student perspective. I learned basic firearm safety and marksmanship in Boy Scouts back in the '80s.

    I don't recall if BSA taught Coopers 4, but I do remember the emphasis on keeping guns pointed in safe directions, and NEVER point a gun, loaded or not, at another person.

    Many years later, I decide to get a gun for self defense, stumble onto INGO, and read a 4 vs 3 debate.

    I'm now an adult, with a healthy respect for Firearms, and the potentially lethal consequences of mis-handling them, and my first thought on reading Cooper's rule #1 is "No it isn't."

    I don't know if my reaction is typical, but I'm sure it happens often. I just don't understand why an instructor would want the first and most important interaction with a student to be a provably false statement.

    enough from me for now. Commence discussion.
     

    Libertarian01

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    I agree with the rule that "all guns are always loaded" not in the factual sense but rather the philosophical one.

    On one hand of course all guns aren't always loaded (factual), however, the idea is to treat all guns as if they are always loaded (philosophical). By embracing this mindset we never, ever make the mistake of casually squeezing off a round into someone or something because "it weren't loaded...:ugh:"

    It's analogous to remembering "everything you say can and WILL be used against you..." Of course not everything will be used against you, BUT it sure as hell is a good idea to keep yer piehole shut due to the fact that some random blurb can mean the difference between freedom and a cellmate named Bubba.

    Here is a story: UPDATE: Police: Father committed "a series of heinous and depraved acts" before shooting daughter | Lake County News | nwitimes.com

    Per the story, "...
    they believe their father forgot he had put bullets back in the 9 mm Glock when he pointed it at Olivia Hummel and shot her in the head..."

    She WAS nine years old. She will NEVER be ten. This is very possibly due to ignoring several rules, one of which is the always loaded one.

    How many people have been injured or killed because "Dad or _____BLANK_______ never keeps it loaded."

    Personally, I think it is a rule worth keeping.

    Regards,

    Doug
     

    EPeter213

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    I agree with the 'philosophy', but I take issue with the way it is presented.

    Training and emphasizing muzzle control and finger discipline, regardless of the presence of live rounds, builds safe gun handling habits without any room for confusion or second guessing.

    Telling a new student, 'All guns are always loaded' is condescending, and likely to generate skepticism.
     

    cbhausen

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    Thanks to both of you for starting this off on the right foot. I'm truly interested in learning WHY people do negligent things with firearms. It isn't enough to say "he was stupid" or "he broke rule x of three (or four)". Finding out WHY equips us as teachers (and we ALL are teachers) to do a better job instilling safe gun handling habits in those we encounter.
     
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    jamil

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    Thanks to both of you for starting this off on the right foot. I'm truly interested in learning WHY people do negligent things with firearms. It isn't enough to say "he was stupid" or "he broke rule x of three (or four). Finding out WHY equips us as teachers (and we ALL are teachers) to do a better job instilling safe gun handling habits in those we encounter.

    It's not just one cause. And if you try to lump every cause into one, it ends up so vague that you really can't come up with one solution for it. Maybe you could lump everything into just a few causes though. For example, you can say "he was stupid". Yeah. Okay. Sure. But there's not just one corrective action for that. And it's not mindlessness that causes negligence with firearms. People are thinking when they do the stupid stuff.

    Even if people are diligent to be mindful of safety 99.9% of the time, statistics are a ***** when you have a thousand opportunities. It takes just one lapse of safety caught at the right time to have a bad day.

    Now for me. I'm a very absent minded person. I have A.D.D. pretty bad. I have to have personal rules that feel very awkward and obvious if I break them.
     

    cbhausen

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    It's not just one cause. And if you try to lump every cause into one, it ends up so vague that you really can't come up with one solution for it. Maybe you could lump everything into just a few causes though. For example, you can say "he was stupid". Yeah. Okay. Sure. But there's not just one corrective action for that. And it's not mindlessness that causes negligence with firearms. People are thinking when they do the stupid stuff.

    Even if people are diligent to be mindful of safety 99.9% of the time, statistics are a ***** when you have a thousand opportunities. It takes just one lapse of safety caught at the right time to have a bad day.

    Now for me. I'm a very absent minded person. I have A.D.D. pretty bad. I have to have personal rules that feel very awkward and obvious if I break them.

    Thanks for your input. I never said anything about one cause or lumping things together. I'm not interested so much in oversimplifying the root causes of unsafe gun handling as understanding why we humans do wrong when we KNOW BETTER.

    This could make a fascinating research study topic but I'm a product designer not a psychologist (and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night).
     

    EPeter213

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    You make a good point, Jamil. 4 or 3, if the rules are followed, everyone stays safe.

    I think that what CB is trying to determine is whether the way we teach the rules makes someone more, or less, likely to follow them.

    Hickock45 teaches Cooper's four, and he borders on OCD when it comes to checking for clear in his videos. But...
    in the same safety video, he sweeps his own arm with an empty gun as part of his demonstration.

    Granted, he chose to use the air soft gun he had on hand instead of the more lethal pistol, and there was no ammo 'on set' when he was filming, but he still exhibited different gun handling with the 'unloaded' pistol. Why would he do that?

    Please don't take this as an attack on Hickok. I am simply making an observation here, and asking you to think about the 'why'.
     

    Snapdragon

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    Will following the four rules prevent negligent discharge? Yes.

    Will following the three rules prevent negligent discharge? Yes.

    </thread>
     

    IndyDave1776

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    My experience suggests that we have a percentage of the people who take the attitude that because [tragic outcome] has not happened to them in the past (in spite of presumably having acted recklessly in the past) that it isn't going to happen to them. I once got fired over calling out this mentality regarding renting out unsafe aerial lifts. At the end of the day, some people, for whatever reason, believe they can play with their guns, particularly around others who may potentially be harmed, and because they never ventilated anyone's head that way before, they are somehow exempt from bad things happening. I don't understand how any reasonable person could believe such a thing, but have seen it enough in my travels that I have no doubt that it is in fact the truth.
     

    cbhausen

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    Will following the four rules prevent negligent discharge? Yes.

    Will following the three rules prevent negligent discharge? Yes.

    </thread>

    No to /thread...

    Not enough of us follow the rules!

    WHY???

    And what can we do better to reduce unsafe gun handling? You agree we CAN do better, right?
     

    Snapdragon

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    Agreed that not enough people follow the rules. But I don't understand the need to declare one set of rules right and the other set wrong. If you don't like one, use the other. They both work.
     

    cbhausen

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    Agreed that not enough people follow the rules. But I don't understand the need to declare one set of rules right and the other set wrong. If you don't like one, use the other. They both work.

    It isn't a matter of right vs. wrong. Maybe I should not have declared my position in the OP but I figured the regulars here knew my position anyway.

    HOW we teach MATTERS. It's about teaching the "best" way, the way which ensures the safest gun handling habits are instilled and ingrained in our behavior.

    I ask you all: What is the common denominator in the vast majority of negligent discharges? Simple: "I didn't know it was loaded."

    Now I ask: WHY did the negligent person handle the "unloaded" firearm in an unsafe manner? WHY did he think it was acceptable to blatantly violate simple muzzle and trigger discipline rules with devastating consequences?
     

    EPeter213

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    Good point. I think it's up to the convictions of the teacher. You can sell either one if you believe in it.

    I can agree with that. If the instructor can clearly communicate the 'mindset' of Cooper's #1 their students should be on the right path.

    However, if the student reacts to Cooper's #1 with skepticism, and that skepticism affects the way they receive the rules that follow, then the instructor has arguably made their job that much harder.

    Which would be easier?
     

    M67

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    I ask you all: What is the common denominator in the vast majority of negligent discharges? Simple: "I didn't know it was loaded."

    The other is simple.....people.

    Rule #1) Don't trust anyone

    I've been handed many unloaded guns to find out maybe the magazine was out but there was one in the pipe or vice versa; or people who say it's not loaded in general. Been swept by too many "unloaded" guns as well to trust anyone else but myself

    For me, verification is the first step cause I don't trust what others may claim, and until I see with my own eyes I don't trust it.


    However, like someone mentioned before. It's a numbers game. Accidents will happen and stupid will happen. Car incidents, gun incidents, power tools, etc. Unfortunate things will always happen, we can just hope to decrease the odds by education and people using their brains
     
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