Is integrally supressed really an NFA item?

[Thegeek]

I saw an add for the Ruger 10/22 takedown in an integrally supressed version and it got me thinking. According to the ATF:

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act the term Silencer is defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(24)

The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

Based on that definition, it would imply that a silencer is an item of it's own construction added to a firearm to lower the measurable report of the firearm. I really can't find anywhere that states a firearm must have a minimum decibel rating. The integral silencer is the report of that particular firearm design. Nothing has been added to make it quieter. I know I'm splitting hairs, but isn't that the game? Quieter for a more pleasurable and safe shooting experience. Just because this model of 10/22 is 20dB quieter, does that make it a silencer under their definition?

 

[HoughMade]

No. If the barrel itself is the suppressor, then it is a "device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm". Nothing in the definition states or implies that the "combination of parts" need to be separate and detachable. Anything designed into the firearm to make it quieter than it would be without that design falls under this definition.

 

[Thegeek]

My logic.... what's the report of the integrally suppressed firearm without the integral supressor? It's not functional at that point. It's that wishy washy definition. "....a device for diminishing the report...". To me that means something added to an otherwise functional firearm with a measurable report.

If we push the logic the other way, every indoor gun range's sound proofing is a silencer. Every stand of trees, walls, berms, etc. are silencers. They're added to muffle the report are they not?

((( I don't mean to argue with anyone, just making an argument )))

 

[Nojoy621]

The barrel isn't the firearm, the receiver is. The barrel, integrally suppressed or not is an attachment to the receiver. It's was designed to muffle the sound of a normal barrel on the receiver.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I'm with HM. The "device" is the barrel. If you put a different, normal barrel on the same gun it would no longer be suppressed.

 

[snapping turtle]

The next step in firearms design should be some take on a navy rail gun. Magnetic pulse fire of some type. If the projectiles are kept under the speed of sound the it should be very quite. I always wondered why in star wats the blasters even made a sound. Since a beam of energy particles should not make much sound as there would be little mass involved.

the answer is a integral suppressed barrel is still NFA. A magnet force used to launch a projectile would not be a suppression system since other than breaking the speed of sound there would be no noise from gunpower to silence.

 

[Old Dog]

Integrally suppressed barrel is NFA item because BATFE says so... their interpretation of the law, and we have to live with it.

 

[singlestacksig]

The next step in firearms design should be some take on a navy rail gun. Magnetic pulse fire of some type. If the projectiles are kept under the speed of sound the it should be very quite. I always wondered why in star wats the blasters even made a sound. Since a beam of energy particles should not make much sound as there would be little mass involved.

the answer is a integral suppressed barrel is still NFA. A magnet force used to launch a projectile would not be a suppression system since other than breaking the speed of sound there would be no noise from gunpower to silence.

air movement, the blast would heat the air as it passes thru, much like a sonic boom..

 

[HoughMade]

My logic.... what's the report of the integrally suppressed firearm without the integral supressor? It's not functional at that point. It's that wishy washy definition. "....a device for diminishing the report...". To me that means something added to an otherwise functional firearm with a measurable report.

If we push the logic the other way, every indoor gun range's sound proofing is a silencer. Every stand of trees, walls, berms, etc. are silencers. They're added to muffle the report are they not?

((( I don't mean to argue with anyone, just making an argument )))

So, this integrally suppressed gun...are there baffles? Chambers? If so, why?

 

[NHT3]

So, this integrally suppressed gun...are there baffles? Chambers? If so, why?

Being devils advocate, baffles could arguably be used to stiffen and stabilize the barrel for improved accuracy.. I understand that it's an NFA item simply because the all knowing ATF says it it. Just like the SIG brace could be shouldered, then it couldn't, and as it understand now it can be shouldered again.
I see the logic of thegeeks argument. If a "slick willie" lawyer can argue what the definition of "is" is, and if that IS certainly the case, the wording could be up for interpretation. Problem with that is ATF has final say on the meaning and can change their collective mind every other day if they like.
[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member [/FONT]NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT]
Glock certified armorer- M&P Certified armorer
[FONT=&amp]“[/FONT]Safety is not something that you hold in your hands, it happens between your ears”
Col. Jeff Cooper

 

[IndyIN]

My logic.... what's the report of the integrally suppressed firearm without the integral supressor? It's not functional at that point. It's that wishy washy definition. "....a device for diminishing the report...". To me that means something added to an otherwise functional firearm with a measurable report.

If we push the logic the other way, every indoor gun range's sound proofing is a silencer. Every stand of trees, walls, berms, etc. are silencers. They're added to muffle the report are they not?

((( I don't mean to argue with anyone, just making an argument )))

The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

The “… any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm…” makes me scratch my head. This statement, by itself, would seem to include these as in scope

 

[snapping turtle]

air movement, the blast would heat the air as it passes thru, much like a sonic boom..

So just the energy heating the air around a Star Wars blaster energy pulse should crack the whip not the weird sound effect they use. I also wonder why we hear the same sound in tie fighters in space. Space is empty. Thus no sounds waves as nothing to wave thru.

Now baffles in the barrel are are needed to make it well a suppressed barrel. I also think RUgers barrel is really only like 10 inches long the rest is a series of baffles and chambers.

 

[russc2542]

The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

The “… any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm…” makes me scratch my head. This statement, by itself, would seem to include these as in scope

Excluding the rest of the sentance, yes. but the latter part of the sentence indicates the part to be attached to or part of the firearm. Earmuffs reduce the report reaching your ears but the report is still there outside of the firearm prior to the pressure wave reaching the earmuffs and is still present to passerby. The controlled silencer forces the sound through itself (thereby diminishing it) before releasing it to the environment. range baffles, a stack of tires, and ear-pro do not attach to the firearm and act upon the sound after it has been released to the environment in-full.

 

[Thegeek]

This is kind of like the reverse of the EPA noise regulations for cars. They mandate it can be no louder than X. So, they put mufflers on and stamp them as EPA compliant OEM equipment. So why wouldn't an electric car have an EPA stamped muffler? Because it's normal state is quieter.

This whole silencer thing is something that alters the normal state. But isn't an integrally suppressed design the normal state? That's really the argument. How do you know the device decreased the volume of the report if the silencer is integrated? Don't manufacturers claim what a the manufactured firearm is? How do they know a Glock19 frame is a pistol and not a rifle without a measure of the complete item?

The ATF just keeps making it up as they go along..... and someone needs to remind them they don't make law.

 

[Hotrod29]

All this energy would be better spent calling your Reps and demanding they support removing suppressors from the nfa

 

[singlestacksig]

So just the energy heating the air around a Star Wars blaster energy pulse should crack the whip not the weird sound effect they use. I also wonder why we hear the same sound in tie fighters in space. Space is empty. Thus no sounds waves as nothing to wave thru.

Now baffles in the barrel are are needed to make it well a suppressed barrel. I also think RUgers barrel is really only like 10 inches long the rest is a series of baffles and chambers.

Mindwebs: The Gun Without A Bang by Robert Sheckley : SFFaudio

 

[HoughMade]

Being devils advocate, baffles could arguably be used to stiffen and stabilize the barrel for improved accuracy.

If it has the effect of muffling the sound it doesn't matter what the intended use was...or what the spurious claim of the intention was. Even if it did matters, juries don't have to take for word for what your intent was.

I agree- put this energy into getting the law changed because the law is, unfortunately, crystal clear.

 

[JettaKnight]

This is kind of like the reverse of the EPA noise regulations for cars. They mandate it can be no louder than X. So, they put mufflers on and stamp them as EPA compliant OEM equipment. So why wouldn't an electric car have an EPA stamped muffler? Because it's normal state is quieter.

This whole silencer thing is something that alters the normal state. But isn't an integrally suppressed design the normal state? That's really the argument. How do you know the device decreased the volume of the report if the silencer is integrated? Don't manufacturers claim what a the manufactured firearm is? How do they know a Glock19 frame is a pistol and not a rifle without a measure of the complete item?

The ATF just keeps making it up as they go along..... and someone needs to remind them they don't make law.

This is one area where Europe has us beat. In many situations, suppressor use is mandated.

 

[actaeon277]

This is one area where Europe has us beat. In many situations, suppressor use is mandated.

Yup. I love pointing that out to anti-gunners.

 

[russc2542]

This is kind of like the reverse of the EPA noise regulations for cars. They mandate it can be no louder than X. So, they put mufflers on and stamp them as EPA compliant OEM equipment. So why wouldn't an electric car have an EPA stamped muffler? Because it's normal state is quieter.

This whole silencer thing is something that alters the normal state. But isn't an integrally suppressed design the normal state? That's really the argument. How do you know the device decreased the volume of the report if the silencer is integrated? Don't manufacturers claim what a the manufactured firearm is? How do they know a Glock19 frame is a pistol and not a rifle without a measure of the complete item?

The ATF just keeps making it up as they go along..... and someone needs to remind them they don't make law.

I take it you're in an engineering field?