How can they tell

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  • bloodman

    Marksman
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    1   0   0
    Mar 4, 2011
    193
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    in your nightmares
    the NFA rules were written along time ago, before the AR15 was invented, if you cut down a rifle to make a pistol that was easy to spot but an AR15 is different. How can they tell if you made an AR15 rifle and then put a pistol brace and short barrel on it at a latter date?
     

    lonehoosier

    Grandmaster
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    28   0   0
    May 3, 2011
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    From the serial numbers when they run it. Or if you buy a stripped lower fill out the 4473 and mark rifle they'll know it then.
     

    CampingJosh

    Master
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    18   0   0
    Dec 16, 2010
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    ATF clarified this back in 2011.

    ARs are not inherently designed as rifle only, so it's my understanding that you can change back and forth between rifle and pistol so long as you never have a rifle (gun designed to be fired from the shoulder) with a barrel less than 16" or an overall length less than 26". As I understand the ruling (linked below) reconfiguring an AR from its non-NFA-regulated rifle form to its non-NFA-regulated pistol form is not "making" a firearm and so not illegal.

    https://www.atf.gov/files/regulation...ing-2011-4.pdf

    "Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).

    "Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol)."

    But I'm not a lawyer, and so this can't be legal advice.
     

    T.Lex

    Grandmaster
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    15   0   0
    Mar 30, 2011
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    the NFA rules were written along time ago, before the AR15 was invented, if you cut down a rifle to make a pistol that was easy to spot but an AR15 is different. How can they tell if you made an AR15 rifle and then put a pistol brace and short barrel on it at a latter date?

    I'm not sure I completely understand your question.

    An AR lower has the serial number. Let's call that the "serialized part." This serialized part of an AR was produced after the NFA and there is a record based on the serial number as to when it was produced.

    Now, there's a form called the 4473. When a serialized part is purchased from an FFL, that's the form that details who the purchaser is and what category the serialized part falls into. That form will state whether the serialized part is for: a handgun, a long gun, or an other. If it was transferred as a long gun, then that's what it magically is. If they find a long gun serialized part with a shorter-than-it-should-be barrel, then there's an NFA problem. If it was transferred as a handgun or other, then it can be a handgun. Or it can be changed to a "rifle" as long as the shorter-than-it-should-be barrel isn't attached at the same time as the stock.

    These are just observations as to what the current understanding is, not legal opinions or advice. There are many permutations and oddities, but that's the general idea.

    Unless I misunderstood your question. Which is always possible.
     

    kawtech87

    Grandmaster
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    44   0   0
    Nov 17, 2011
    7,101
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    Martinsville
    "How can they tell"

    When you post about your intentions on a forum board that is probably monitored by the government. Like say INGO for example.
     

    Rayne

    Grandmaster
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    5   0   0
    Jan 3, 2011
    14,945
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    Former Tree Sniper
    I'm not sure I completely understand your question.

    An AR lower has the serial number. Let's call that the "serialized part." This serialized part of an AR was produced after the NFA and there is a record based on the serial number as to when it was produced.

    Now, there's a form called the 4473. When a serialized part is purchased from an FFL, that's the form that details who the purchaser is and what category the serialized part falls into. That form will state whether the serialized part is for: a handgun, a long gun, or an other. If it was transferred as a long gun, then that's what it magically is. If they find a long gun serialized part with a shorter-than-it-should-be barrel, then there's an NFA problem. If it was transferred as a handgun or other, then it can be a handgun. Or it can be changed to a "rifle" as long as the shorter-than-it-should-be barrel isn't attached at the same time as the stock.

    These are just observations as to what the current understanding is, not legal opinions or advice. There are many permutations and oddities, but that's the general idea.

    Unless I misunderstood your question. Which is always possible.

    This is a very interesting thread because I was wondering the same thing. I bought a stripped lower years ago and wanted to make it a pistol now, but had no idea what it was registered as when I first purchased it. I originally used the lower as a rifle and because of my uncertainty, I sold the rifle and bought a pistol lower and another stripped lower that I know this time was registered as other.

    So my question is; Is there a way to find out what your lower was originally registered as? I sure hated to sell my original rifle, cause I had it customized to the way I liked it and would have preferred switching uppers and taking the butt stock off from time to time, depending on how I wanted to use it.
     

    kawtech87

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    44   0   0
    Nov 17, 2011
    7,101
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    Martinsville
    okay it was legally registered on the 4473 as other does that make it a pistol or rifle. I think it comes down to what was on that 4473.

    I've always been under the impression that "once a pistol always a pistol" but I could be wrong. Sounds like others have said as long as it's not registered as a pistol and you never assembled a SBR then it should be ok.
     

    Floivanus

    Sharpshooter
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    2   0   0
    Dec 6, 2016
    612
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    La crosse
    I've always been under the impression that "once a pistol always a pistol" but I could be wrong. Sounds like others have said as long as it's not registered as a pistol and you never assembled a SBR then it should be ok.
    Once transfered as a rifle always a rifle.

    if you assemble a kit from a stripped receiver, you can go from pistol to rifle; as long as the buttstock is nowhere near, or thinks about being near a sub 16" upper. If you BUY a pistol, you can change to a non NFA rifle, and go back to original pistol configuration at will. However, if you buy a rifle, it is always a rifle as swapping a short barrel onto it, by definition, is making a short barreled rifle.

    if you build a pistol, then make it into a rifle, and sell it in rifle configuration it is now always a rifle. If you want to have fun, an AR pistol isn't allowed to have a vertical foregrip (it's a handgun, not hands gun) so you can build a "firearm" with an overall length (from crown of the muzzle, to end of the receiver extension (pistol buffer tube) greater than 26" and an arm brace, this firearm doesn't fall into any NFA definition, and you can use a vertical foregrip.

    OP, the answer if it went thru NICS as a rifle, always a rifle. If you aren't sure, start with a $49 stripped lower (make sure it gets transferred as other, or whatever the third option is)and you're good to go
     

    bloodman

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Mar 4, 2011
    193
    16
    in your nightmares
    Once transfered as a rifle always a rifle.

    if you assemble a kit from a stripped receiver, you can go from pistol to rifle; as long as the buttstock is nowhere near, or thinks about being near a sub 16" upper. If you BUY a pistol, you can change to a non NFA rifle, and go back to original pistol configuration at will. However, if you buy a rifle, it is always a rifle as swapping a short barrel onto it, by definition, is making a short barreled rifle.

    if you build a pistol, then make it into a rifle, and sell it in rifle configuration it is now always a rifle. If you want to have fun, an AR pistol isn't allowed to have a vertical foregrip (it's a handgun, not hands gun) so you can build a "firearm" with an overall length (from crown of the muzzle, to end of the receiver extension (pistol buffer tube) greater than 26" and an arm brace, this firearm doesn't fall into any NFA definition, and you can use a vertical foregrip.

    OP, the answer if it went thru NICS as a rifle, always a rifle. If you aren't sure, start with a $49 stripped lower (make sure it gets transferred as other, or whatever the third option is)and you're good to go
    I purchased the stripped lower as "other" built the stripped lower as a rifle, now I want to build it as a pistol. The gun shop where I purchased the stripped lower says I can do it, are they correct?
     

    kaveman

    Expert
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    19   0   0
    Sep 13, 2014
    853
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    La Porte
    On the one hand we have a $49 lower.

    On the other we have at least the 'possibility' of defending ourselves in court against a felony charge(whether successful or not almost doesn't matter when 'winning' will cost you some hundreds of times more than the lower). Losing of course will cost you all of that, plus your freedom and a lifetime of lost rights.

    In what world does a multi-use lower balance against even the 'possibility' of legal trouble? If you want to build a rifle, buy a lower and build a rifle. If you later want to build a pistol, buy another lower and build a pistol. Continue doing this unimpeded for the rest of your life,......or take legal advice from LGS's and online gun forums. If you go straight to BATF for an answer you can rely on you will not get one.
     

    bloodman

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Mar 4, 2011
    193
    16
    in your nightmares
    On the one hand we have a $49 lower.

    On the other we have at least the 'possibility' of defending ourselves in court against a felony charge(whether successful or not almost doesn't matter when 'winning' will cost you some hundreds of times more than the lower). Losing of course will cost you all of that, plus your freedom and a lifetime of lost rights.

    In what world does a multi-use lower balance against even the 'possibility' of legal trouble? If you want to build a rifle, buy a lower and build a rifle. If you later want to build a pistol, buy another lower and build a pistol. Continue doing this unimpeded for the rest of your life,......or take legal advice from LGS's and online gun forums. If you go straight to BATF for an answer you can rely on you will not get one.

    Should I consult a lawyer, like Guy Relford?
     

    Floivanus

    Sharpshooter
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    2   0   0
    Dec 6, 2016
    612
    28
    La crosse
    https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

    4 page letter, a bit of a read, but ATF opinion in 2011 is that if no NFA regulated firearm is made from a stripped lower (or a pistol) then you are okay. Get a new stripped $49 lower and have it sent as "other" and you can go back and forth. Remove the stock/buffertube forst if you're breaking it down as a rifle and rebuilding it into a pistol. This opinion applies to the AR15 due to its inherent modularity.

    https://www.ar15.com/forums/general...Pistol_to_Rifle_and_back_to_Pistol/5-1213799/
    https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/ar-rifle-to-pistol-conversion-before-sbr.215334/
    https://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/54365-ar15-pistol-to-rifle-and-back-to-pistol/
     
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