Help with laws on homemade/80% firearms

[David19]

Greeting all, been reading here for about as long as I can remember but finally actually joined up. Great info! So my question is, after speaking with several local LEO's in my area as well as a Deputy Prosecutor, none of them believe that a private person can build and own a firearm that ends up with NO serial number. I know that this is covered under federal law, however I have yet find the specific text that covers it and I have found NOTHING under Indiana state law that specifically states that no serial numbers are required. Only that they can't be removed, altered, etc. Does anyone have a link, pdf or anything to both the federal law and the state law that they could share? I have been using the search feature here until my eyes hurt but I can't find the actual text of the laws. Thank you for any help.

 

[d.kaufman]

Greeting all, been reading here for about as long as I can remember but finally actually joined up. Great info! So my question is, after speaking with several local LEO's in my area as well as a Deputy Prosecutor, none of them believe that a private person can build and own a firearm that ends up with NO serial number. I know that this is covered under federal law, however I have yet find the specific text that covers it and I have found NOTHING under Indiana state law that specifically states that no serial numbers are required. Only that they can't be removed, altered, etc. Does anyone have a link, pdf or anything to both the federal law and the state law that they could share? I have been using the search feature here until my eyes hurt but I can't find the actual text of the laws. Thank you for any help.

There is no issue in owning with no seriel number, you just cant sell it. At least that is my understanding. Im sure others will be along shortly with more info

 

[686 Shooter]

I do believe that you can sell a gun that you build, but you can’t build a gun with the intention of selling it.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Greeting all, been reading here for about as long as I can remember but finally actually joined up. Great info! So my question is, after speaking with several local LEO's in my area as well as a Deputy Prosecutor, none of them believe that a private person can build and own a firearm that ends up with NO serial number

David, assuming you are a non-prohibited person you can build as many guns (assuming Title I and enough metal in them) as you want and whether you inscribe a serial number is up to you. You just cannot sell them. You need an FFL for that endeavor.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-individual-need-license-make-firearm-personal-use

If you want to make Title II weapons, need higher class FFL and SOT # (and prior approval).

P.S.--stop listening to prosecutors.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

How to mark serial numbers if you in da bidness: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rms-ammunition-firearms-verification-overview

(NOTE the depth and height requirements)

 

[686 Shooter]

I do believe that you can sell a gun that you build, but you can’t build a gun with the intention of selling it.

 

[lonehoosier]

.

 

[kaveman]

Federally, ATF "recommends" that you apply an identifiable serial number on any firearm that you make for personal use. One interesting fact about federal agencies is that they don't recommend things if they're already "required" by law.

You also don't often find specific language in law or regulation if a thing is "allowed".

FWIW, why a person wouldn't put some random number on a piece of work is beyond me. It's not like the number needs to mean anything. Any number will do,......it shouldn't take much to allow LEOs and Prosecutors to go about their business. Squirrel!

 

[David19]

Good info from everyone and it's appreciated. I guess I'm just trying to get ahead of the game when dealing with people who don't understand both Federal and State law. I'd hate to be the guy that ends up making case law over this. It would all work out in the end but could make for a bad day in the short term. I'm assuming the following is what Indiana law would be based on:
[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT,Bold]IC 35-47-2-18
Obliterating identification marks on handgun or possession of such
handguns prohibited
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT,Bold][/FONT][/FONT]Sec. 18. (a) No person shall:
(1) change, alter, remove, or obliterate the name of the maker,
model, manufacturer's serial number, or other mark of
identification on any handgun; or
(2) possess any handgun on which the name of the maker,
model, manufacturer's serial number, or other mark of
identification has been changed, altered, removed, or
obliterated;
except as provided by applicable United States statute. So, I'm assuming the "applicable US Statue" would be based on what the ATF was referring to??

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Good info from everyone and it's appreciated. I guess I'm just trying to get ahead of the game when dealing with people who don't understand both Federal and State law. I'd hate to be the guy that ends up making case law over this. It would all work out in the end but could make for a bad day in the short term. I'm assuming the following is what Indiana law would be based on:
IC 35-47-2-18
Obliterating identification marks on handgun or possession of such
handguns prohibited
Sec. 18. (a) No person shall:
(1) change, alter, remove, or obliterate the name of the maker,
model, manufacturer's serial number, or other mark of
identification on any handgun; or
(2) possess any handgun on which the name of the maker,
model, manufacturer's serial number, or other mark of
identification has been changed, altered, removed, or
obliterated;
except as provided by applicable United States statute. So, I'm assuming the "applicable US Statue" would be based on what the ATF was referring to??

There were a ton of firearms made without serial numbers prior to 1968. I shut down a Gander Mountain when I bought a Colt .22 without a serial number from them. They just kept spinning around in their hands like raccoons washing an apple.

Post 68, if you make guns to sell, buy the appropriate FFL, call TTB for the excise taxes and get an account set up, SOT #, and then mark the guns according to the CFR I posted.

If you makes guns for you, as long as you are not prohibited, make guns for you, but not to sell or distribute. If you want to mark then, cool. If not, fine.

If there is a serial number on a gun, do not change, alter, remove or obliterate it. Do not buy a gun with a jacked up serial number.

 

[Mgderf]

There were a ton of firearms made without serial numbers prior to 1968. I shut down a Gander Mountain when I bought a Colt .22 without a serial number from them. They just kept spinning around in their hands like raccoons washing an apple.

Post 68, if you make guns to sell, buy the appropriate FFL, call TTB for the excise taxes and get an account set up, SOT #, and then mark the guns according to the CFR I posted.

If you makes guns for you, as long as you are not prohibited, make guns for you, but not to sell or distribute. If you want to mark then, cool. If not, fine.

If there is a serial number on a gun, do not change, alter, remove or obliterate it. Do not buy a gun with a jacked up serial number.

Interesting story.
Years ago I purchased a used shotgun as a gift for my brother.
It was a cheap, single-shot, break action shotgun in 16ga.
I made the purchase on GunBroker, and all was well, until I picked the gun up at my local FFL.

When I got it home, and not before, I opened the action and found the serial number was on the barrel lug, but it looked like it had been altered.
I was nervous about possessing a firearm with an altered serial number, so I called the ATF.
When I told them I had a firearm with what appeared to be an altered serial number, I had their full attention.
They were kind enough to send a field agent to my front door the following day to inspect the shotgun.

When I showed it to the agent he agreed that the number looked odd, but wasn't willing to call it "altered".
Sid it looked more like it may have been double-struck when first applying the serial number.

He told me I was good to go.
The ATF was not going to overly concern themselves with a 60 year old single-shot shotgun.
Had it been a handgun or an AR it may have been different.

Happy to say my brother enjoys that shotgun today.

 

[David19]

I agree on the facts relating to building, owning and selling but I'm still looking for the actual US code/Indiana code that states this. I'm only finding plenty of sources of folk stating this (which I know is true) but, I really am wanting document or text that states this. Thanks again.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

David, I posted the CFRs.

 

[lonehoosier]

Why are we looking/asking for law to tell us what we can do?! The question you should be asking them is show me the law that says I can’t and tell them you don’t have the rest of your life to wait for it.

 

[Fargo]

I agree on the facts relating to building, owning and selling but I'm still looking for the actual US code/Indiana code that states this. I'm only finding plenty of sources of folk stating this (which I know is true) but, I really am wanting document or text that states this. Thanks again.

I don't believe you are going to find one under Indiana law, it is silent on the subject other than the altering statute posted above.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I agree on the facts relating to building, owning and selling but I'm still looking for the actual US code/Indiana code that states this. I'm only finding plenty of sources of folk stating this (which I know is true) but, I really am wanting document or text that states this. Thanks again.

What is legal is not usually codified. What's illegal is. There's no law I can buy strawberries on Sunday, but there is a law that restricts alcohol under the same circumstances. If there's no law that says it's required, it's not required. Kirk showed you what's required:

David, I posted the CFRs.

 

[johny5]

To the OP:

I have a great deal of respect for Law Enforcement Officers. They truly are the "Thin Blue Line" that stands between a peaceful society and those who would do it harm. They are every-day heroes. That said, I would never rely on an LEO for knowledge or interpretation of firearms legislation.

 

[STFU]

FWIW, why a person wouldn't put some random number on a piece of work is beyond me. It's not like the number needs to mean anything. Any number will do,......it shouldn't take much to allow LEOs and Prosecutors to go about their business. Squirrel!

Agreed. The serial number does not have to be a number. You could actually mark it as "S/N: SCREW-THE-ATF"

All kidding aside. Mark it how you want. Remember part of the idea is to create a receiver that is not recorded on a 4473 sitting at a LGS.
One other thing to consider is that if you have a trust (and a schedule of items in that trust), a homemade serial might help identify which items (you have made) belong in that trust. I have a couple of different trusts and different schedules for each. Just mu $.02.

 

[David19]

Perfect, thank you to most for your responses and most confirmed what I was looking for. I agree for the most part however there is one disturbing portion of I.C. that I find alarming. Under 35-47-2-24 it states that the burden of proofis on the defendant to prove that he is exempt under that particular section, the burden of proof is not on the prosecution. This is backwards from almost all other laws.

As far as making someone show you that law that says that you are in violation.... a person will certainly win that argument however you may still end up in the pokey for a day, name in the local media, etc. My whole intention of trying to come up with tangible, clearly written clarification on this matter, was to properly educate my local Prosecutor and LEO's so that no one is violated and LEO's don't get themselves into trouble. Sorry for beating a dead horse on this matter, there are a few individuals in my area that are either uneducated on the issue or just plain anti-firearm.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Perfect, thank you to most for your responses and most confirmed what I was looking for. I agree for the most part however there is one disturbing portion of I.C. that I find alarming. Under 35-47-2-24 it states that the burden of proofis on the defendant to prove that he is exempt under that particular section, the burden of proof is not on the prosecution. This is backwards from almost all other laws.

It is guns, the Constitution matters very little. Carrying a handgun (most handguns) is a crime, the license is merely an affirmative defense.

Careful about complaining about standing the burden of proof on its head. As I can tell you from recent experience, people will make threats to you and your family if you stand up for the Constitution.