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  1. #11
    Expert Beowulf's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadeye View Post
    Bring back the old MAC-10. Cheap, reliable and brutally effective at close range.
    Maybe yours is, but mine never was with the stock upper. It ran like a clock with my AMP-10 upper and ran pretty well with a Lage MAX10/45. But with the stock factory upper, even with a suppressor, it wasn't anything I'd bet my life on.

    Now, my MP5, once I upgraded it with the MAD MAX bolt head, seems to be effectively 100% and I'd be willing to trust it in a dust up (though, all in all, I'd probably rather have my M16 with my Noveske CQB 10.5" upper, which is back to the real question of whether the subgun is dead).
    Minimum Government, Maximum Freedom.

  2. #12
    Grandmaster BehindBlueI's's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    ... I'd probably rather have my M16 with my Noveske CQB 10.5" upper, which is back to the real question of whether the subgun is dead).
    SBR 5.56 has been the repeated nail in the coffin of the SMG. I'm somewhat surprised .300 blackout hasn't been more of a thing in the same role.
    L'otters are not afraid.

  3. #13
    Expert Brad69's Avatar

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    I posted this when the Army adopted the Sig Tango 6 optic

    Don’t forget politics

    Sig Sauer has courted the US Army for many years every major Army event has a SIG booth. When I processed though the CONUS replacement center at Ft. Benning SIG handed out bags of swag high end stuff and overseas phone cards ect. SIG has donates a large amount of money to Army related charity’s including matches the SIG academy.
    They have outreach teams to demo and display equipment as does FN and H&K the difference is SIG sends former Sepc Ops guys instead of engineers and salesman. They offer engraving for special weapons it’s a full press on for being the go to for weapons and equipment.
    Combined with a sweet discount for private sales Sig Sauer is very popular !

    So BLUF
    Sig Sauer, H&K and FN work hard to get the “foot in the door”.
    I have never witnessed S&W, Colt even bother to show up!
    Glock donated about $500,000 to the AUSA and spent time and effort courting the Officers which didn’t work.
    U.S. Army retired

  4. #14
    Master Tombs's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alamo View Post
    Some possible reasons offered here;

    BACK TO SUBGUNS? US Army Releases RFI for Sub Compact Weapons - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog


    https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...n-in-75-years/

    To summarize the links: the Army is moving to a heavier more powerful round for infantry rifles and light machine guns, something that might not easily scale down to a personal defense weapon size for troops that are not in line combat units or in vehicles. 9x19 mm is already in the logistics system unlike other Rounds such as 5.7mm.

    So returning to a WWII-like spectrum of individual weapons.

    Note that this is a request for information, not a solicitation. A lot of RFIs are put out to gather information and never turn into an actual acquisition.

    I'll believe it when I see it. If they're seriously going back to full power cartridges, then they haven't learned anything about why we got away from full power cartridges in the first place.

    Not only that, 6.8mm isn't much of a step up from 5.56. If they'd just standardize 5.56 with a 75gr pill, they'd stop all this nonsense.
    "Fiat justitia ruat caelum" - Trey Gowdy

  5. #15
    Grandmaster Leadeye's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
    Maybe yours is, but mine never was with the stock upper. It ran like a clock with my AMP-10 upper and ran pretty well with a Lage MAX10/45. But with the stock factory upper, even with a suppressor, it wasn't anything I'd bet my life on.

    Now, my MP5, once I upgraded it with the MAD MAX bolt head, seems to be effectively 100% and I'd be willing to trust it in a dust up (though, all in all, I'd probably rather have my M16 with my Noveske CQB 10.5" upper, which is back to the real question of whether the subgun is dead).
    My experience was just the opposite, that and the high price tag were the reasons for selling my MP-5 years ago. I don't think my Powder springs MACs have ever had a stoppage going back to 1981. The SW76, M1 Thompson, and my short home built M16 are my most reliable guns, but don't have the rate of fire of the MACs.

    I have been referred to at times as a stone age open bolt knuckle dragger by HK people, but I consider it a compliment.
    Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth shattering Kaboom.

    Marvin the Martian

  6. #16
    Expert Beowulf's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leadeye View Post
    My experience was just the opposite, that and the high price tag were the reasons for selling my MP-5 years ago. I don't think my Powder springs MACs have ever had a stoppage going back to 1981. The SW76, M1 Thompson, and my short home built M16 are my most reliable guns, but don't have the rate of fire of the MACs.

    I have been referred to at times as a stone age open bolt knuckle dragger by HK people, but I consider it a compliment.
    Hah. Well, maybe we need to get you out to the next INGO Proteq open shoot with your subguns and we can run them side by side and see.

    Though personally, I still have a great fondness for open bolt guns and wouldn't mind owning one again (particularly an uzi), but since my funds aren't infinite, I ended up settling for two of the most flexible platforms I could get within my budget (a registered HK sear and an M16 lower). I'm glad I did too, since I certainly wouldn't be able to afford them again now, and it's only been a few years.
    Minimum Government, Maximum Freedom.

  7. #17
    Grandmaster Kirk Freeman's Avatar

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    They'll turn us all to beggars because they're easier to please

  8. #18
    Grandmaster Kirk Freeman's Avatar

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    What the Green Machine gives, the Green Machine takes: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...eapon-program/
    They'll turn us all to beggars because they're easier to please

  9. #19
    Grandmaster BehindBlueI's's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Freeman View Post
    What the Green Machine gives, the Green Machine takes: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...eapon-program/
    It appears that the programs specifications and requirements have changed and need to be rewritten before the program can move forward.
    "Must be capable of firing in an environment that is a near complete vacuum at temperatures approaching absolute zero..."

    L'otters are not afraid.

  10. #20
    Grandmaster Leadeye's Avatar

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    Firing a sub gun in zero G is going to take some engineering, maybe some small version of a recoilless rifle.
    Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth shattering Kaboom.

    Marvin the Martian

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