bill of sale

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  • jimmothy86

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    Jan 29, 2010
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    Anyone have a form or document already made up for this that would suffice for FTF sales so i have proof its no longer my firearm, but tailored to indiana's laws, IE information that can be collected to prove "Proper Person"? i'm not so untrusting that i want to request an ffl do all my transfers, but i want a solid "something" to cover my ass, knowwhatimean?
     

    Libertarian01

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    Anyone have a form or document already made up for this that would suffice for FTF sales so i have proof its no longer my firearm, but tailored to indiana's laws, IE information that can be collected to prove "Proper Person"? i'm not so untrusting that i want to request an ffl do all my transfers, but i want a solid "something" to cover my ass, knowwhatimean?


    If they're willing you could just write down their LTCH number. However, a lot of folks may be a bit defensive about that. Privacy issues and all.

    Another is just to look at their LTCH for proof. If asked later, you can state that since you demanded to see the LTCH and looked at it, they must have passed Indianas laws and were thus by default a proper person.

    Regards,

    Doug
     

    WebSnyper

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    You don't have to & can't really "prove" proper person unless you are doing a transfer via an FFL. The law requires you have no knowledge that they are NOT a proper person, if I recall correctly.

    A Bill of Sale may make you feel better about things, but it really isn't proof of much in reality.

    Most folks are not going to be too interested in you recording and keeping any of their identification details.

    If it makes you feel better, something signed and dated with the serial number and some pertinent facts regarding the firearm involved in the transaction would be pertinent.

    Also, you will want to mention in any ad that you want a bill of sale for both parties and what type of info you are looking for, so that everyone knows what is being requested up front.
     

    d.kaufman

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    Theres plenty of firearm bill of sales you can print off the internet. Just google "firearm bill of sale"
     

    Areoflyer09

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    I had a buyer last night ask to do a bill of sale. First time that has happened. I looked over what he had created and I had no qualms with it.

    it literally said “I (my name) sold (his name) a (insert gun).” No serial number, no signatures. It was more like a statement of fact than a bill of sale.

    OP - I think you’ll find that a lot of buyers won’t buy if it requires the bill of sale. It’s unnecessary paperwork for most. The above was the first time I’ve come across it and it wasn’t worded in a way to mean anything anyways. That’s the only reason I went along with it.
     

    JettaKnight

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    Theres plenty of firearm bill of sales you can print off the internet. Just google "firearm bill of sale"

    THIS.

    However... there's no such thing as "tailoring to Indiana laws" because there's no law in regards to this.


    Do you have any reason to believe that person cannot own a firearm? How exactly do you document that negative fact?

    And unless it's notarized it's not worth that much. There's several folks here that keep a stack of bills of sale with the name JettaKnight just in case the police come knocking. :):



    While it's good to do your due diligence, those that have sold many guns will tell you* it's not necessary and some would consider it intrusive. The only story I've ever heard was a newspaper article about our old chief of police, the esteemed Rusty York - he should an old revolver and it was used in a crime several decades later. His response was "I sold it."


    FWIW, I keep records where mandated (C&R FFL03), otherwise I keep date, location, price and most of the name fields contain, "A guy".


    Use your nose - if it smells fishy, don't make the sale, otherwise a hearty handshake and maybe a glance at an IN DL is enough.

    :twocents:





    * Have you searched INGO for "bill of sale"? This topic can get heated and ... :horse:
     

    JettaKnight

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    I had a buyer last night ask to do a bill of sale. First time that has happened. I looked over what he had created and I had no qualms with it.

    it literally said “I (my name) sold (his name) a (insert gun).” No serial number, no signatures. It was more like a statement of fact than a bill of sale.

    OP - I think you’ll find that a lot of buyers won’t buy if it requires the bill of sale. It’s unnecessary paperwork for most. The above was the first time I’ve come across it and it wasn’t worded in a way to mean anything anyways. That’s the only reason I went along with it.

    He probably needed a receipt for tax purposes. :):
     

    Libertarian01

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    As a C&R holder I am required by federal law to record basic information about any C&R eligible firearm I buy or sell. I will let potential buyers/sellers know this before I do business. Most of the folks selling a C&R type weapon understand this ahead of time and have no problems with it. However, some may not understand the law in that regard and someday I may not be able to complete a transaction due to the other persons reluctance to give out such information.

    I am not a lawyer but do think that as stated above it is generally correct that you have no knowledge that they are not a proper person. Should some doofus say something to the effect of, "Boy, I shore am glad yer sellin' this 'cause I couldn't buy one from a gun store," it probably would be best to cancel the transaction on the spot. Just my gut feeling there.

    Regards,

    Doug
     

    bwframe

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    A bill of sale is not legally required for personal sales. Personally I am not apt to do anything beyond what is necessary. I'll wait for the next seller on the next commonly sold item. I'm happy to flash the pink paper and drivers licence (no recording of info) to verify I'm a non-felon Hoosier.

    That said, I never say never. I'd sign an appropriate bill of sale for a very special unique item or possibly a totally unbeatable price. AS LONG AS it was arranged in advance. It'd be unhappy times if this was sprung on me at the last minute, when meeting to trade the goods. :twocents:
     

    jimmothy86

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    Jan 29, 2010
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    Indianapolis
    wow, thank you all for all the info, so ID and LTCH seems to be good enough, should i at least remember/write down the name somewhere that was on the card for at least my personal info>?
     

    bwframe

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    You are totally free to ask for whatever you want, to make you feel better. The important thing is to clarify the terms of the deal before all parties travel to meet. Nobody likes surprises, standing in a parking lot. :xmad:

    Personally, I do what is legally required, nothing beyond.

    If there is any concern beyond my vetting the INGOer I'm dealing with by reading their post history and iTrader status, I might ask TO SEE a LTCH and drivers license. If it looks like that needs to happen, I'll specify that up front via PM or txt. Often, post history and iTrader will eliminate the need for checks.

    IANAL, but it is my understanding that the requirement is to not KNOWINGLY sell to a non resident or felon.

    It doesn't happen often, but once in a while age becomes an issue. Over the years there have been a few sneaky juveniles attempt purchases.

    Don't treat anything I or anyone else says on here as legal advice. It is the interwebs, we could all be twelve year old girls. :n00b: Do your own research.

    This site, others like it and all the trader sites are to be considered watched by various alphabet agency's. We know INGO is, for sure.
     

    Jeepster48439

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    wow, thank you all for all the info, so ID and LTCH seems to be good enough, should i at least remember/write down the name somewhere that was on the card for at least my personal info>?

    You are totally free to ask for whatever you want, to make you feel better. The important thing is to clarify the terms of the deal before all parties travel to meet. Nobody likes surprises, standing in a parking lot. :xmad:

    IANAL, but it is my understanding that the requirement is to not KNOWINGLY sell to a non resident or felon.

    What you ask for, and maybe record, will be dictated by who you are dealing with and how you came to know them. If you are dealing with someone you've met with at the 1500 and have never met before you may want to see more identification than if you're dealing with your best friend or cousin.
    They key is see what you need to see to satisfy yourself that the buyer is proper.
     

    bwframe

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    What you ask for, and maybe record, will be dictated by who you are dealing with and how you came to know them. If you are dealing with someone you've met with at the 1500 and have never met before you may want to see more identification than if you're dealing with your best friend or cousin.
    They key is see what you need to see to satisfy yourself that the buyer is proper.

    I'm just a private citizen. Unless something comes to light about legal requirements that are new, I'm operating under the standard of not knowingly selling to a nonresident or felon.

    LTCH and DL serves those requirements, if I feel the need to verify, which isn't legally required, IIRC.

    I don't belive there is any requirement for a private sale to ever include logging people's information.

    Please specify with links to the code, if I am mistaken. Thanks.
     

    LarryC

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    Jun 18, 2012
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    As an FFL-03 (Curio & Relics license), I am required to obtain information for my "Black book" records for C&R firearms ONLY. Otherwise, as
    long as I know the person purchasing the firearm is an Indiana resident and 18 YO or older, I require NO other information. The Federal law requires that you do not sell to anyone you "KNOW OR HAVE REASONABLE DOUBT" is not legal to possess a firearm period! I definitely
    follow all Federal and State laws, but sure feel there are enough restrictions in place I do not need to add any more..
     

    LP1

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    wow, thank you all for all the info, so ID and LTCH seems to be good enough, should i at least remember/write down the name somewhere that was on the card for at least my personal info>?

    Most buyers will balk at the recording of any info. Look at D/L - does the picture look like the buyer, and does it have an Indiana address? Look at LTCH - does name match the D/L? Keep in mind that the pink LTCH may contain an old address, since ISP records address changes but does not send a new card unless requested and paid for.
     

    STFU

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    Let's throw another wrench into this...from the angle of buying a firearm from someone unknown:
    What if the firearm you buy is stolen?

    Indiana man convicted of possessing stolen guns | Local Crime & Courts | pantagraph.com
    "...was guilty of possessing weapons that he knew had been stolen."
    I realize that there is an intent and "knowledge" aspect of this, I'm not willing to take the chance that I may be in possession of a stolen firearm.
    To me, no seller info = no recourse.
     
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