Stopping power

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  • 2A_Tom

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    [video=youtube;nycYxb-zNwc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nycYxb-zNwc[/video]
     

    mcapo

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    East of Hoosier45 - West of T-dogg
    Reinforces what I have always said. The answer to the 9mm vs 45 acp vs 40 SW question is 357 magnum.

    That being said, I carry 9mm because the platform is the easiest to carry, cheaper to train with and I shoot it the most in other guns, by far.

    Interesting study and analysis. Thanks for sharing!
     

    BowhuntnHoosier

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    Very nice video. I think the bugging out with a .22 rifle is better because of the availability of .22 shells. Almost every American household has .22 shells in it. Hard to find 454 Casull ammo in the neighbors house. Interesting information. Thanks for sharing.
     
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    Lost me at stopping power, tried to watch anyway. Turned it off at 410 pistol is say about half as effective as a 12g shotgun cause it has half the pellets. :rolleyes: give me a ****ing break.
     

    LarryC

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    Very interesting video! However one issue that was not discussed is how accurate YOU are with any chosen weapon! A head shot with a 9mm or .380 is more effective than a shot in the leg from a shotgun or rifle.

    I don't ever intend to "Bug out" any farther than my youngest sons home in the country. My bug out prep would be loading all my guns and ammo, food, generator, etc. into my vans and heading his way.

    Between us, we have enough rounds to last for at least 3 generations. Our firearms range from air guns to 50BMG. with many military rifles in high power (Garands, carbines, Mausers, Sniper rifles AK's Ar's Lr's etc.) calibers and several handguns from 22's to 44 mag.

    He has a LOT of food stored as do I, and he has many live poultry, milk goats, etc. We both have generators, and fuel stored. I feel certain we could maintain our family members lives for several years, discourage trespassers and eliminate thieves etc.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Lost me at stopping power, tried to watch anyway. Turned it off at 410 pistol is say about half as effective as a 12g shotgun cause it has half the pellets. :rolleyes: give me a ****ing break.

    Didn't bother to watch, and if that's part of the video I'm glad I didn't waste my time.

    "Stopping power" in common duty calibers is angels dancing on a pinhead. Choose a cartridge that passes the FULL battery of FBI tests, then put the bullet where it needs to be. Done.
     

    HoughMade

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    So- any defensive caliber 380 and up for the handgun, better options are rifle of shotgun.

    Every once in a while research lands you where logic should have to begin with.
     

    KellyinAvon

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    Very nice video. I think the bugging out with a .22 rifle is better because of the availability of .22 shells. Almost every American household has .22 shells in it. Hard to find 454 Casull ammo in the neighbors house. Interesting information. Thanks for sharing.
    You've checked the neighbors house for .454?
     

    HoughMade

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    Lost me at stopping power, tried to watch anyway. Turned it off at 410 pistol is say about half as effective as a 12g shotgun cause it has half the pellets. :rolleyes: give me a ****ing break.

    So....you didn't see the part where he said .410 with 00 even with less pellets than a 12ga would likely be markedly better than defensive handgun calibers...but acknowledged it was speculation?

    Where he makes the jump to supposition from research, admittedly, you have to look at that suspect, but he brings up some interesting points.

    Didn't bother to watch, and if that's part of the video I'm glad I didn't waste my time.

    "Stopping power" in common duty calibers is angels dancing on a pinhead. Choose a cartridge that passes the FULL battery of FBI tests, then put the bullet where it needs to be. Done.

    So you would agree that from 380 through 44 Mag there isn't a statistical difference in "stopping power" based upon caliber alone?

    ...cause that's what he says.

    I think it's worth watching as long as we do so with our critical thinking caps on.
     

    2A_Tom

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    Didn't bother to watch, and if that's part of the video I'm glad I didn't waste my time.

    "Stopping power" in common duty calibers is angels dancing on a pinhead. Choose a cartridge that passes the FULL battery of FBI tests, then put the bullet where it needs to be. Done.

    Another person attempting to quantify the unknowable?

    It's like that is some sort of gun culture theme or something.

    Not to argue with either of you, but tha police officer that gathered actual data from over 1500 incidents should be discounted as fast as BBI's stats on DGU's.
     

    eldirector

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    So... handguns are actually pretty terrible as far as "stopping", especially when compared to rifles or shotguns? Huh.

    Honestly, the only reason handguns exist is because they are more portable than rifles. Society has also been more accepting of "if I don't see it, it can't hurt me". If defense was the ONLY consideration, we would be carrying long guns chambered in a round suitable for something human-sized.

    Testing "stopping power" of a handgun is like testing the acceleration of 4-door sedans. Sure, you can do it, but it is rare to find something that actually performs in a meaningful way.
     

    Ark

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    No, we cannot look at 12 gauge shotguns and draw conclusions on .410 shells out of a 2 inch barrel.

    Otherwise, little of this should be "new" or "revolutionary" information, unless your sole source is Bubba Fudd down at the gun store. If caliber effectiveness is largely a wash, then it logically follows that your biggest consideration should be your ability to shoot.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    So you would agree that from 380 through 44 Mag there isn't a statistical difference in "stopping power" based upon caliber alone?

    ...cause that's what he says.

    If we define "stopping power" as effectiveness in stopping dedicated attackers, no I won't go quite that far. .380 is deflected by bone easier, won't do as well if it has to go through a forearm first, etc. as a .44 magnum will. That's why I specified "common duty calibers" in the post.

    Not to argue with either of you, but tha police officer that gathered actual data from over 1500 incidents should be discounted as fast as BBI's stats on DGU's.

    There's a reason I only use my own cases or cases I can directly question the detective/see the case file, etc. on. Quality control. I briefly tried to so some caliber comparisons as well and quickly learned it's a useless task when not tightly controlled. Garbage in, garbage out, and when you don't have all the data and can't control the input your conclusions aren't terribly valid if they end up being "right".

    The amount of variables is astounding, and there's no good way to account for them. Shot placement (not all "head shots" are equal...), projectile used (large number of thug on thug shooting tells you how a variety of cheap ammo works), distances each caliber is likely used in (a 9mm duty weapon is likely to see engagements at distances a .25 pocket pistol won't be), etc. So, no, it's not directly analogous to my DGU stats. I can determine how many shots were fired. I can't determine if a .40 would have rode a rib in the same situation a .45 did.

    The more valid comparisons come when a large controlled group change ammunition. Then nothing else changes. If Hypothetical Large Police Dept changes cartridges, but does not change training practices or tactics, and after a multitude of shootings sees a trend, that's reasonably controlled data input. Which is why there's a lot of good data on various duty cartridges, and a relative sparsity of good data on things like the .32 ACP or .41 AE. Nobody with the resources required cares.
     

    2A_Tom

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    No, we cannot look at 12 gauge shotguns and draw conclusions on .410 shells out of a 2 inch barrel.

    Otherwise, little of this should be "new" or "revolutionary" information, unless your sole source is Bubba Fudd down at the gun store. If caliber effectiveness is largely a wash, then it logically follows that your biggest consideration should be your ability to shoot.

    Agreed. However he did say that that was his conjecture and not a finding of the study.

    I am a little surprised that .380 showed so well in this study, since the Bubba Fudd consensus on INGO is that it is a mouse gun and should never be carried for self defense.

    But as a 1911 guy it is nice to see that 9MM placed even lower than .380.
     
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