The intellectual dark web weighs in on the "Guns are always loaded" debate..

[indiucky]

Those interested in questions of Faith may want to listen to all of it...Those that are curious only about the "All guns are always loaded" and it's psychological ramifications should start listening at 12 minutes...A VERY fascinating talk on the metaphorical aspect of "all guns are loaded" I.E. Metaphorical truth versus literal truth.....

Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, and Bert Weinstein...Metaphorical truth and literal truth regarding the "all guns are loaded" vs "treating guns as if they are always loaded." Worth watching...Fascinating actually....

[video=youtube;LxhxSx9Wq9w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxhxSx9Wq9w[/video]

 

[JJFII]

While I have not yet watched this I will voice my view.

I HATE with a passion the expression, TREAT all guns as IF they were loaded. All you are doing is pretending and pretending means fake and false. Your brain knows this and if you treat your gun as if it was loaded...well you end up shooting yourself or others with an UNLOADED GUN...

Stop pretending. KEEP ALL GUNS LOADED AT ALL TIMES.

Why dont you stick metal forks into light sockets? Do you TREAT light sockets AS IF they are live electrical circuits..or do you KNOW they are live electrical circuits...

think about it.

I hope this is what the video is about.

 

[indiucky]

I hope this is what the video is about.

It's a tad deeper than that....

 

[JJFII]

So basically they are saying its a necessary evil to pretend all guns are loaded to keep the majority safe... The exact opposite is also true. The reason people are shot and killed with unloaded guns is because we treat all guns as if they are loaded. So when we "KNOW" the gun is unloaded we are unsafe with it...and when we are wrong, bad stuff happens.

So you have a choice;
1- never be wrong
2- never unload your guns, (or at least make it an exceptional situation to be unloaded...ie when are electrical sockets not live)


and just an FYI, all guns in my house are loaded 99% of the time. The only time guns are not loaded is when they are handled. The first action in my home with any firearm is to unload it, the last action in my home is to load it before putting it away.

 

[CraigAPS]

The reason people are shot and killed with unloaded guns is because we treat all guns as if they are loaded. So when we "KNOW" the gun is unloaded we are unsafe with it...and when we are wrong, bad stuff happens.

If someone were treating a gun "as though it were loaded," they wouldn't be waving it around or putting their finger on the trigger. I think it's less a lack of care, but more a lack of knowledge. I think it's the fact that we don't teach people how to safely handle a firearm.

 

[BiscuitsandGravy]

Well...

 

[indiucky]

I can't fathom having all of my guns loaded..Number one it would take me a day to do it and number two why? Why would I want tension on the springs of classic doubles? Why would I want a unissued BCD 4 K98 loaded???? What good would having a flintlock rifle primed and loaded at half cock be??? Why compress springs on a 1918 Colt 1911????

Why would I want to keep the guns in the shop loaded? I can't fathom the nightmare of 8mm and 7.62x54r flying to the floor of the shop every time a customer went to open the action on a rifle.....If I did there would be a ND at least once a day....

 

[JJFII]

If someone were treating a gun "as though it were loaded," they wouldn't be waving it around or putting their finger on the trigger. I think it's less a lack of care, but more a lack of knowledge. I think it's the fact that we don't teach people how to safely handle a firearm.

You are missing the point. If you pretend guns are loaded, you are in effect fooling yourself. Your mind knows what is actually going on. This sets you up for failure. You believe you are safe when in fact you are not, because you pretend to be dangerous when your mind knows its not. This is the basic of all Human minds. This is why people are shot with unloaded guns. This is why people intentionally pull the trigger on a gun they KNOW is unloaded only to find out its actually loaded.

50% of all NDs are not accidental. They are 100% purposeful pulls of the trigger on an unloaded firearm, that turns out to be loaded. 100% of these are from people who are TAUGHT treat all guns AS IF they are loaded and they fail to do that because they KNOW the rule is about pretending.

Again... why are we not seeing hundreds of reported electrocutions from live wall sockets? Granted its not going to kill 99% of the people stupid enough to put something metal in them, but the main reason isnt that... the main reason is we are taught from our toddler years... they are live circuits. We are not taught to pretend they are. If we were to teach children to pretend all sockets are live and in reality all sockets are controlled by a switch (some are), I can guarantee you more people would be electrocuted every year.

I thought it was unloaded. or I didnt know it was loaded.
WHY did you think that?
I dont know.

This is the exact conversation after all purposeful NDs. The person who purposely pulls the trigger on a firearm, THINKING its unloaded, has always been taught to pretend they are loaded.

I can't fathom having all of my guns loaded..Number one it would take me a day to do it and number two why? Why would I want tension on the springs of classic doubles? Why would I want a unissued BCD 4 K98 loaded???? What good would having a flintlock rifle primed and loaded at half cock be??? Why compress springs on a 1918 Colt 1911????

Why would I want to keep the guns in the shop loaded? I can't fathom the nightmare of 8mm and 7.62x54r flying to the floor of the shop every time a customer went to open the action on a rifle.....If I did there would be a ND at least once a day....

I can guarantee if every firearm in your shop was loaded 100% of the time there would be zero purposeful NDs. Because every gun would be unloaded every time it was handled. Why do Professional and amateur Electricians get zapped everyday? Because they think the circuit is off.

I am not saying this would eliminate all NDs. I am saying when you train people that a gun IS LOADED it will decrease the number of purposeful trigger pulls which result in an ND.

I grew up around firearms. Every firearm I had access to was loaded 100% of the time. There were many guns I didnt have free access to and those were kept unloaded because they were stored...and if I ever did get one out of the safe, I always checked it...why? Because all guns are kept loaded so it was unusual to have one not loaded.

My one and only purposeful ND was when I just snapped and broke my right arm. I was in a huge amount of pain and I was manipulating my 1911 to clear it and store it. Well my mind went one way and my hands went the other and the next thing I know I am discharging a round at a 45 degree angle pointing to the ground...my safety reflex of always pulling the trigger on an UNLOADED gun in this fashion saved me from just randomly pulling the trigger in a random direction in my house.

I painfully locked the slide back,(why I dont know) dropped the mag, then loaded a fresh one (for some crazy reason) and dropped the slide forward... next step in my storing process is dropping the hammer...and yes I know pulling the trigger on 1911s to drop the hammer isnt good. That's a whole other debate...LOL I am glade a small portion of my safety training kicked in while under serious pain and stress. I then concentrated on what I was doing and safely stored the weapon.



Maybe that is because you are taking this too far and not far enough at the same time. Its the same as when guys complain that a person in a video points a gun at the camera... and the same guy screams bloody murder when a person does lock and show unloaded 20,000,000 times before a demonstration video.

 

[singlesix]

Here we go away, same old stuff again, marching down the avenue ....

 

[billybob44]

Here we go away, same old stuff again, marching down the avenue ....

Yeah, you are right..If I did not know better I would have thought that JJFFII was on the "Race" to 50 posts with this manner of responses??..Bill.

 

[mergatroid]

So basically they are saying its a necessary evil to pretend all guns are loaded to keep the majority safe... The exact opposite is also true. The reason people are shot and killed with unloaded guns is because we treat all guns as if they are loaded. So when we "KNOW" the gun is unloaded we are unsafe with it...and when we are wrong, bad stuff happens.

So you have a choice;
1- never be wrong
2- never unload your guns, (or at least make it an exceptional situation to be unloaded...ie when are electrical sockets not live)


and just an FYI, all guns in my house are loaded 99% of the time. The only time guns are not loaded is when they are handled. The first action in my home with any firearm is to unload it, the last action in my home is to load it before putting it away.

I think they are using it as a "rhetorical device", like the myth that porcupines can shoots quills. Saying to "treat all guns as if they are loaded" is simply saying, "guns are dangerous, treat them with the respect they deserve". It is a myth that serves the purpose of illustration as a fable does.

You may be overthinking this a tad.

It is philosophy, not Jeff Cooper.

 

[singlesix]

Yeah, you are right..If I did not know better I would have thought that JJFFII was on the "Race" to 50 posts with this manner of responses??..Bill.

Topic not person, as my Pastor use to say ... "check yourself". Seems you are focused on the person ... man crush ??

 

[Mgderf]

I say whatever works for you.
Unfortunately nothing is a 100% guarantee.

In my opinion, I wish more emphasis were put on one of the other rules instead.
Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction


If this one rule was followed religiously there would be virtually zero injuries or deaths from an accidental discharge.
I've always felt this rule deserved more attention.

 

[JJFII]

I think they are using it as a "rhetorical device", like the myth that porcupines can shoots quills. Saying to "treat all guns as if they are loaded" is simply saying, "guns are dangerous, treat them with the respect they deserve". It is a myth that serves the purpose of illustration as a fable does.

You may be overthinking this a tad.

It is philosophy, not Jeff Cooper.

I agree with that as well because both of them are anti-gun. They dont understand the complexity of stress with deadly objects. I actually met Sam at a bar after he did an interview in Texas. We talked about the danger of AI and the theory we are inside a complex and advanced simulation.

 

[GIJEW]

You are missing the point. If you pretend guns are loaded, you are in effect fooling yourself. Your mind knows what is actually going on. This sets you up for failure. You believe you are safe when in fact you are not, because you pretend to be dangerous when your mind knows its not. This is the basic of all Human minds. This is why people are shot with unloaded guns. This is why people intentionally pull the trigger on a gun they KNOW is unloaded only to find out its actually loaded.

50% of all NDs are not accidental. They are 100% purposeful pulls of the trigger on an unloaded firearm, that turns out to be loaded. 100% of these are from people who are TAUGHT treat all guns AS IF they are loaded and they fail to do that because they KNOW the rule is about pretending.

Again... why are we not seeing hundreds of reported electrocutions from live wall sockets? Granted its not going to kill 99% of the people stupid enough to put something metal in them, but the main reason isnt that... the main reason is we are taught from our toddler years... they are live circuits. We are not taught to pretend they are. If we were to teach children to pretend all sockets are live and in reality all sockets are controlled by a switch (some are), I can guarantee you more people would be electrocuted every year.

I thought it was unloaded. or I didnt know it was loaded.
WHY did you think that?
I dont know.

This is the exact conversation after all purposeful NDs. The person who purposely pulls the trigger on a firearm, THINKING its unloaded, has always been taught to pretend they are loaded.

The reason people aren't shocked all the time with wall outlets is that, aside from curious toddlers, we know that they're not used by sticking forks etc in them. Expecting them to be energized isn't the whole story.

Likewise, "Always treat all guns as if they're loaded" needs to be taken in context too. We know we're supposed to keep our fingers off the trigger until we're ready to fire, meaning we've already indentified our target and what's beyond it, and our gun is on target. Randomly pulling triggers is reckless, willful stupidity. Furthermore, treating guns as if they're loaded, IMO involves a chamber check--especially before dry-fire practice.

While it's an interesting point that our subconsious will know that our guns aren't really loaded, that part of our brain operates by habit not analysis, and it should be enough to be vigilant and reinforce habitually abiding by basic safety rules. I'd guess that most NDs are cases of people talking themselves out of that--"familiarity breeding contempt"

 

[Hoosierkav]

The "guns...loaded" was part of a larger discussion about things, including child sacrifice, with it in the context, as indiucky stated, of metaphorical vs literal truth. We might know that the gun is unloaded, but we treat it (still) as if it were loaded. We can debate until the cows come home whether we should or shouldn't, but here, the highlight was just that--treating each gun the same, regardless of load status, presents a dichotomy of truth.

It is fascinatingly cerebral, really.

 

[ATM]

...In my opinion, I wish more emphasis were put on one of the other rules instead.
Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction


If this one rule was followed religiously there would be virtually zero injuries or deaths from an accidental discharge.
I've always felt this rule deserved more attention.

Agreed, but no need to wish, that already is the #1 fundamental rule for safe gun handling as taught and practiced by many within the firearms community:

https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org/


The old "all guns are always loaded" metaphor/mantra can be (and has been) pondered or discussed as a separate topic, but really has no place among actual safe gun handling steps to be adhered to.

 

[JJFII]

Agreed, but no need to wish, that already is the #1 fundamental rule for safe gun handling as taught and practiced by many within the firearms community:

https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org/

The old "all guns are always loaded" metaphor/mantra can be (and has been) pondered or discussed as a separate topic, but really has no place among actual safe gun handling steps to be adhered to.

The problem isnt with the people who are safe with guns. For those people the standard rule works and frankly they dont need a rule to tell them what is safe. I know not to take a shower while using my hair drier.

The problem is with the people who dont take safety as serious as they should. This is where the training fails because the training is about "pretending" things are dangerous when they are not (when they really are dangerous while loaded or unloaded).

an "unloaded" gun is 10,000 x more deadly than a loaded gun...why... because for every accidental ND of a loaded gun there are 10,000 people injured by "unloaded" guns...ie I thought it was unloaded.

So by altering our safety mentality and pushing that all guns should be kept loaded at all times, we have put the unsafe person into a situation where they MUST be safe.

but I do realize there are goofballs who just do stupid things...like pointing an unloaded gun at their kid... loaded, unloaded, fake airsoft ...its just shows how stupid people are to the core.

 

[Mgderf]

The problem isnt with the people who are safe with guns. For those people the standard rule works and frankly they dont need a rule to tell them what is safe. I know not to take a shower while using my hair drier.

The problem is with the people who dont take safety as serious as they should. This is where the training fails because the training is about "pretending" things are dangerous when they are not (when they really are dangerous while loaded or unloaded).

an "unloaded" gun is 10,000 x more deadly than a loaded gun...why... because for every accidental ND of a loaded gun there are 10,000 people injured by "unloaded" guns...ie I thought it was unloaded.

So by altering our safety mentality and pushing that all guns should be kept loaded at all times, we have put the unsafe person into a situation where they MUST be safe.

but I do realize there are goofballs who just do stupid things...like pointing an unloaded gun at their kid... loaded, unloaded, fake airsoft ...its just shows how stupid people are to the core.

And we all know, according to Ron White, "You can't fix stupid".

 

[bwframe]

Some just have to overthink things. They can't help themselves.




[video=youtube;1g_r_j_i_6U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g_r_j_i_6U[/video]