Selling a pistol question

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  • G192127

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    Asking for a friend, really, it's NOT me.
    A buddy bought a pistol from a private individual. Both Indiana residents, sale took place in Indiana.
    Seller took a picture of buyer's driver's license and his "pink card" ltch...
    Afterwards buyer wondered if he should have done that...
    Opinions?
     

    d.kaufman

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    I definitely wouldnt want pics taken of either. Even more so if his ssn was on the DL. That would be a no deal for me personally. I have no problem showing them or even signing a bill of sale, but thats it
     

    Pyro

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    Back when I traded a few pistols I would verify ltch, and do a Bill of sale (has all this info) in the beginning. Over time I'd verify ltch, and take a picture of both DLs, theirs and mine in one photo that I TXT them. The TXT showed a meeting between to valid IN people but no context of what we traded. Trading today I'd probably still do that.
     

    lonehoosier

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    If you are that concerned about this why not just go through an FFL to relieve you of all the liability that you are concerned of.
     

    JettaKnight

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    If it was a C&R pistol and if the seller had an FFL03, then by law he would have to record the DL# of the buyer.

    Doesn't sound like the case here, just a seller that probably heard taking pictures was the right thing to do at his LGS.



    Either way, water under the bridge now.
     

    G192127

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    Although these probably aren't reassuring replies to the buyer, I'll pass them on and he'll be wiser the next time.
    Seemed a little funky to me, but "gun guys" can sometimes be 1/2 a bubble off(or on).
    Thanks for your knowledge INGO!
     

    Libertarian01

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    If it was a C&R pistol and if the seller had an FFL03, then by law he would have to record the DL# of the buyer.

    Doesn't sound like the case here, just a seller that probably heard taking pictures was the right thing to do at his LGS.



    Either way, water under the bridge now.


    Or just get a copy of the other guys FFL03...:stickpoke::p

    On the serious side the problem isn't with getting the others name and seeing that the pink LTCH is the problem, that is simple due diligence. The issue is with the permanent recording of the numbers that could be used by a ner'-do-well in the future.

    Making certain Indiana resident & proper person = good.
    Making digital copy that could be misused in the future = not good.

    Regards,

    Doug
     

    WebSnyper

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    That and those pictures probably uploaded to some cloud service... I wouldn't have done it. Show it ... yes. Anything recorded would be a No.
     

    Alpo

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    Your friend should enjoy his new firearm and not worry about it. Some FFL's even make copies of the DL. I know that is "shocking" to some here, but life is too short to worry about it. Your friend was in more danger of being robbed at the transaction.
     

    LarryC

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    I would not want to give anyone but a licensed FFl dealer or FFl 03 collector this information. I am an FFl-03 collector, and the only time I would ask (or give) anything beyond looking at a persons license to verify age and that the person is an Indiana resident. I would not record or photograph anything. If I were purchasing, selling or gifting a C&R firearm I do have to record the person's Name and Address, to enter in my black book. Note: a collectors "Black Book" is a record of any C&R purchases, sales or disposals of any C&R firearms during the time the Collector holds the FFL-03 license. When the collector drops the license the book is NOT sent to the BATF and may be destroyed. The information is there only for the duration of the license for the BATF to inspect at their request.
     

    STEEL CORE

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    My picture is on the wall of most post offices, I just do my transactions and trades in there, the lobbies are warm in the winter and cool in the summer, you can get stamps there too if you want.
     

    LarryC

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    Or just get a copy of the other guys FFL03...:stickpoke::p

    On the serious side the problem isn't with getting the others name and seeing that the pink LTCH is the problem, that is simple due diligence. The issue is with the permanent recording of the numbers that could be used by a ner'-do-well in the future.

    Making certain Indiana resident & proper person = good.
    Making digital copy that could be misused in the future = not good.

    Regards,

    Doug

    Have to disagree with your statement "Making certain Indiana resident & proper person = good."
    First the BATF DOES NOT require you to investigate or determine if the Buyer is a "Proper person". They do not allow access to anyone other tha FFL licensed DEALER to use the database to run a background check. The only requirement is that "if do not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving firearms under federal law" (18. U.S.C. 922(A)(3) and (5) 922(d), 27CFR 478.29 and 478.30) This is quoted directly from the 2005 ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide sent to me from the ATF when I first obtained my FFL-03 license.

    As I firmly believe there are more than enough laws on the books to follow, I certainly won't add any of my own, nor deal with anyone that thinks they should. There are enough regulations that may discourage people from getting into firearm ownership or collecting! I want to encourage people to own and enjoy firearms without any extra hassle.

    You CANNOT be held liable if you follow the law as shown above, if a stranger you are selling to does not appear drunk or under the influence of drugs or state he is intending to use the firearm for some illegal activity there is NO way you could know or have reasonable he is illegal to possess a firearm as long as he shows you an Indiana DL with an age over 17 you are legal to sell a firearm! In reality if he looks 18 or over and says he is from Indiana your legal!

    Other than those who made an obvious straw purchase or sold/gave/provided a firearm to someone they obviously knew was illegal, I have never seen any one harassed or held liable for selling a firearm to anyone. I have talked to several ATF agents in my life, most are pretty decent people doing a job and are not out to persecute innocent people!
     

    DRob

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    We are in the age of ID theft and we've been down that bumpy road. I'm not letting a stranger record my personal info and don't ask him to give me his. I ask to see an IN DL and LTCH when I'm selling any gun. I don't record that info but I provide a receipt/record of the sale for each party that requires signatures of both buyer and seller. Beside specific info on the gun, it includes a statement that the buyer and seller swear they can legally own a gun in Indiana. I've had prospective buyers argue with me via PM that long guns don't require an LTCH. I tell 'em my game my rules. You don't have to play if you don't want to.
     

    Libertarian01

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    Have to disagree with your statement "Making certain Indiana resident & proper person = good."
    First the BATF DOES NOT require you to investigate or determine if the Buyer is a "Proper person". They do not allow access to anyone other tha FFL licensed DEALER to use the database to run a background check. The only requirement is that "if do not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving firearms under federal law" (18. U.S.C. 922(A)(3) and (5) 922(d), 27CFR 478.29 and 478.30) This is quoted directly from the 2005 ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide sent to me from the ATF when I first obtained my FFL-03 license.

    As I firmly believe there are more than enough laws on the books to follow, I certainly won't add any of my own, nor deal with anyone that thinks they should. There are enough regulations that may discourage people from getting into firearm ownership or collecting! I want to encourage people to own and enjoy firearms without any extra hassle.

    You CANNOT be held liable if you follow the law as shown above, if a stranger you are selling to does not appear drunk or under the influence of drugs or state he is intending to use the firearm for some illegal activity there is NO way you could know or have reasonable he is illegal to possess a firearm as long as he shows you an Indiana DL with an age over 17 you are legal to sell a firearm! In reality if he looks 18 or over and says he is from Indiana your legal!

    Other than those who made an obvious straw purchase or sold/gave/provided a firearm to someone they obviously knew was illegal, I have never seen any one harassed or held liable for selling a firearm to anyone. I have talked to several ATF agents in my life, most are pretty decent people doing a job and are not out to persecute innocent people!


    Actually there IS a way to have a far better chance to know if a buyer is a proper person, that is to see a copy of their LTCH.

    Now, some can of course argue that he/she could have done something to have it revoked, but that is a very low chance. By requesting to see the LTCH you know that at least at some point in the past that have 100% passed a background check. That is the "due diligence" to which I refer.

    The federal laws are not the only laws to which we are subjected. There are also Indiana laws, along with civil law. I would not use the word "cannot" when lawyers, federal and/or state prosecutors, or juries are involved. Unlikely? Maybe. Possibly probably. Absolutely? No way.

    Do we have to demand to see an LTCH? No, not at all. Does this minor request go a LOT further in determining their legality to own a firearm? Yes it does. Not everyone demands to see the LTCH and I am fine with that. No issue on my part. However, I also don't have a problem with those that DO demand to see it. To each their own here.

    Caveat: As long as the seller informs the buyer before the meeting. I do get annoyed at folks who are going to want people to jump through hoops without telling them ahead of time. That is bad business.

    Regards,

    Doug
     
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