Front Sight.......

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  • wcd

    Grandmaster
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    Dec 2, 2011
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    Just wondering two things, one got me thinking about the other. I saw a Henry 410 Lever action at lgs appears it was one of the Models with longer barrel and no rear sight. After some looking they offer a shorter length one with a Buck horn rear sight, So How important is the rear sight on a shot gun?

    Second question I revamped my training my range time to practice fast draw target engagement and shooting at multiple targets from concealment etc, Last few times I have been focusing exclusively on Front sight and not putting a whole lot of effort into the rear sight. I hit targets consitently maybe a bit off center but on the 4 inch plate. So Is there any drawback of training this way? From what I have read in a self defense crisis there usually is not a lot of time.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    You should be focusing on the front sight, which usually means a fuzzy rear sight. Ignoring the rear sight entirely, or even the sights entirely, depends. You've got to learn how much sight you need to achieve a certain speed and certain accuracy at a given distance to really answer that question. Work it with a timer and a target and see what you get. Once you've got that knowledge ingrained, hopefully you can instinctively see what you need to see. Aiming can be done through body index, slide alignment, and various degrees of precision of sight picture, and they all have their place. Moving targets vs stationary targets, distance to target, time pressure, etc. will all change what's best at the moment.
     

    wcd

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    You should be focusing on the front sight, which usually means a fuzzy rear sight. Ignoring the rear sight entirely, or even the sights entirely, depends. You've got to learn how much sight you need to achieve a certain speed and certain accuracy at a given distance to really answer that question. Work it with a timer and a target and see what you get. Once you've got that knowledge ingrained, hopefully you can instinctively see what you need to see. Aiming can be done through body index, slide alignment, and various degrees of precision of sight picture, and they all have their place. Moving targets vs stationary targets, distance to target, time pressure, etc. will all change what's best at the moment.

    Thank you, I think I can set my watch to vibrate , it has a stop watch function. What size target, distance and time would you recommend to start? With regards to accuracy seems like a hit is a hit then? Meaning if i am not on the very edge of the gong it should be good then?
     

    JJFII

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    Aiming a firearm, like any physical action, is a function of muscle memory. Its not just words of encouragement to say, "practice makes perfect." The more you do it the better you are at it as long as you keep what works and discard what doesnt. Trick shooters who shoot from the hip without aiming, are in fact aiming. They have drawn and fired the same way so many times they can predict where the muzzle is pointed without aiming down the sights. They can adjust fire as well. I watched an amazing display of action hip shooting once were the guy stood facing the crowd as a random person placed five 12" round Plate targets randomly behind him at different distances away. He turned drew and fired hitting 5 outta 5 from the hip in seconds.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    Thanks for the reminder. my tritiums are getting a wee dim, and now after being prescribed reading glasses for the first time in my life, I am noticing front sight acquisition is harder. Time to replace the Meprolights with Trijicons with the nice big orange paint up front.

    Thought about a set of speed sights, but I think that is just a little too "macro" for me.
     

    wcd

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    Thanks for the reminder. my tritiums are getting a wee dim, and now after being prescribed reading glasses for the first time in my life, I am noticing front sight acquisition is harder. Time to replace the Meprolights with Trijicons with the nice big orange paint up front.

    Thought about a set of speed sights, but I think that is just a little too "macro" for me.

    Xs big Dot could be just the ticket, I had a set (front and rear) on my 1911 absolutely hated the set up. I could not get the hang of them at any distance. Since I have a sight pusher i figured why not try the big Dot front and a plain black wide notch. It has been way more accurate then doting the I and fast under a variety of conditions. My eyesight is fine but wow that golf ball stands out.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Thank you, I think I can set my watch to vibrate , it has a stop watch function. What size target, distance and time would you recommend to start? With regards to accuracy seems like a hit is a hit then? Meaning if i am not on the very edge of the gong it should be good then?

    I don't know that a stopwatch is going to be of much use, I use an actual timer that you wear as a wris****ch.

    As far as distances and sizes, I don't know that there's a specific set. I'd definitely be familiar with what I need to see to do a failure drill at 3y, 7y, and 10y for example. I like the "Find your level" drill as it has various sizes and various demands for number of rounds. 1 shot on a 1" square, 2 shots on a 2" circle, etc. The sight picture you need to hit a 1" square at 5y vs a 4" circle at 5y is different. For a handgun, you don't really have to shoot a bunch of different distances, since bullet drop and windage aren't big concerns. Gotta go, more later.
     

    wcd

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    I don't know that a stopwatch is going to be of much use, I use an actual timer that you wear

    Does it vibrate when the time is reached? I would need some type of visual or something i could feel in order to make it work.

    Thanks
     

    rvb

    Grandmaster
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    Jan 14, 2009
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    What you need to learn is to call your shots. Yes, the rear sight is also important, but your "focus" (both visual and mental) needs to be on the FS. When you can call your shots, and know where the bullet hit on the target just based on the how the sights looked when the shot broke, then this "consistently hitting off center" will go away, or at least it won’t be a surprise if one gets away a little.

    -rvb
     

    Cameramonkey

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    I don't know that a stopwatch is going to be of much use, I use an actual timer that you wear

    Does it vibrate when the time is reached? I would need some type of visual or something i could feel in order to make it work.

    Thanks
    Get a competition timer. They are only about $130 and you can program par times. (beep to start, then beep a second time x seconds after the first beep) Unless you are literally deaf, you can hear the timer through your ear pro.

    EDIT: Not sexy, not fancy. It just works. Pretty damned rugged. And its the most common timer out there. So if you have trouble figuring it out, there is bound to be someone around who knows how to run it.

    https://www.amazon.com/Competition-...qid=1536451736&sr=8-6&keywords=shooting+timer
     
    Last edited:

    wcd

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    Get a competition timer. They are only about $130 and you can program par times. (beep to start, then beep a second time x seconds after the first beep) Unless you are literally deaf, you can hear the timer through your ear pro.

    EDIT: Not sexy, not fancy. It just works. Pretty damned rugged. And its the most common timer out there. So if you have trouble figuring it out, there is bound to be someone around who knows how to run it.

    https://www.amazon.com/Competition-...qid=1536451736&sr=8-6&keywords=shooting+timer

    Appreciate the link unfortunately I have to rely on something visual or something that can be felt.
     

    wcd

    Grandmaster
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    Dec 2, 2011
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    What you need to learn is to call your shots. Yes, the rear sight is also important, but your "focus" (both visual and mental) needs to be on the FS. When you can call your shots, and know where the bullet hit on the target just based on the how the sights looked when the shot broke, then this "consistently hitting off center" will go away, or at least it won’t be a surprise if one gets away a little.

    -rvb

    Are you saying call your shots like End Gong Center? Far left gong Upper third?

    Thanks
     

    rvb

    Grandmaster
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    Are you saying call your shots like End Gong Center? Far left gong Upper third?

    Thanks

    yes, based on sight picture alone you should not just know that you hit the target, but where.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9q1XC8k-tZc

    being able to call your shots also helps eliminate virtually all flinching. You can’t watch the sight lift at the moment the shot breaks if your eyes are closed or focus shifts. Your accuracy will improve because you will have better visual feedback on when to break the shot. It’s a critical skill most don’t understand. Instead, you just hear catch phrases like "watch the front sight" that, as you found, don’t really tell you what you are trying to accomplish.

    -rvb
     

    rvb

    Grandmaster
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    Oh, and the answer is a little different with something like a shotgun. There you are relying on the length of the gun, and consistency of cheek weld etc to make up for the lack of a rear sight. You can still call your shot with just a bead front sight. With a pistol, they are just so short that if you have no reference, any even very minor change in grip or alignment (what we call and "index") would screw your aim all up if all you had or looked at is the FS.

    -rvb
     

    sloughfoot

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    Apr 17, 2008
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    Huntertown, IN
    The very first shotgun class I took in 1988 taught me that my eye was the rear sight for the shotgun. All the 870 shotguns I checked out of the police property room when going out on shift were lacking a rear sight. I qualified easily, many times with department issued shotguns.

    I succumbed at one time to prevailing modern wisdom and built a shotgun with front and rear sights. The rear sight did not remain on that gun for long. It slows you down and does not add anything.

    My current Remington Shockwave does not have, or need, a rear sight. I can pop clay pigeons with it very easily. Even an AR does not really need a rear sight for most of what you need to use a rifle.
     

    wcd

    Grandmaster
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    Dec 2, 2011
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    if you really are that deaf, many competition shot timers can be linked to lights.

    That might be something to look into. Sometimes you have to think outside the box, and learn to do things differently. I was trying to avoid stating because I am a bit embarrassed about it but I do not hear at all.
     

    rvb

    Grandmaster
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    if you really are that deaf, many competition shot timers can be linked to lights.

    That might be something to look into. Sometimes you have to think outside the box, and learn to do things differently. I was trying to avoid stating because I am a bit embarrassed about it but I do not hear at all.

    You might also be able to plug some ear buds into some timers, run the wires under your ear pro....
     

    Cameramonkey

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    if you really are that deaf, many competition shot timers can be linked to lights.

    That might be something to look into. Sometimes you have to think outside the box, and learn to do things differently. I was trying to avoid stating because I am a bit embarrassed about it but I do not hear at all.

    Nothing to be ashamed of, my friend.
     
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