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Thread: DA/SA pistols

  1. #21
    Plinker

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    Quote Originally Posted by russc2542 View Post
    Sorta... the hammer stays down but the hammer spring stays compressed so you have a long but light pull. There're a few versions but the gist of it is there's a short reset and a long reset. short reset acts like SA but if you let go of the trigger to the second reset the hammer's down (decocked) and it's a long pull (but light since the hammer spring's still compressed). If you have a dud primer, there's still a true DA for a second strike but with full hammer spring weight. sounds goofy, takes a little getting used to, but everyone that's gotten through the adaption period loves it.

    Have handled/shot only a handful of sigs (never a legion tho) and yea they have a crisper trigger (less takeup mainly) but my P30 just melts into my hand.
    Are you sure your not refering to a Sig with a DAK trigger? The HK I examened the hammer stayed cocked and it was basically like a SA after the first long DA pull/shot. I used a Sig DAK before wirkwise and wgike bit bad that is an aquired taste

    This shows what I referred about at about the 8 min mark

    https://youtu.be/1KVkWGMkOKE

  2. #22
    Expert russc2542's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiscuitsandGravy View Post
    I know I am asking to be flogged, scoffed, bullied, ejected from , etc... But you should try a Walther P99 AS or P99c AS trigger reset. You get DA/SA with a striker. Let the ridicule begin now... And I'm a DA/SA HK/Sig Guy...
    Have them, agree 100% it's an excellent trigger. one downside though: there's no hammer to thumb when reholstering. well, two: the grips are a bit smooth.

    Quote Originally Posted by ECS686 View Post
    Are you sure your not refering to a Sig with a DAK trigger? The HK I examened the hammer stayed cocked and it was basically like a SA after the first long DA pull/shot. I used a Sig DAK before wirkwise and wgike bit bad that is an aquired taste

    This shows what I referred about at about the 8 min mark

    https://youtu.be/1KVkWGMkOKE
    sorry, probably not explaining it well. we're just circling the same thing from different sides. That video does a good demo BTW.

    To clarify LEM for readers without watching the vid:
    -the hammer spring is compressed by the slide cycling.
    -the trigger rests forward with the hammer down and has a long pull but is very light (up to the wall) (to pull the hammer back to the pre-cocked hammer spring).
    -after firing, the slide cocks the hammer spring like normal BUT
    ----if the shooter only releases the trigger to the reset, the hammer stays back and the shooter gets a SA trigger.
    ----if the shooter fully releases the trigger, the hammer falls as the trigger's released (but the hammer spring is still compressed) and the shooter has the long/light LEM pull.
    -If there is a fail-to-fire, the trigger still functions as a double action (long/heavy) to compress the hammer spring, cock the hammer, and fire again.

    (note, different trigger variations give different springrates at the various steps... there's a light LEM, heavy LEM etc as well as specifying DAO, SAO, or DA/SA, safety lever, and hammer spur. To add to the madness, the trigger variation are also not uniform between models)


    LEM allows a short, light reset or long light reset (Or DA long heavy).
    DAK has a short heavy reset to discourage fast un-aimed shots or long light pull.

    From wikipedia:
    SIG released an altered version of the double-action only (DAO) pistols called the DAK (for Double Action Kellermann, after the designer of the system, Harald Kellermann of EckernfŲrde, Germany).[3] The DAK capability is available in 220, 226, 229 and 239 models. When firing the pistol the first trigger pull is 6.5 lbs (compared to 10 pounds for the standard DAO). After the pistol fires and the trigger is released forward, the trigger has an intermediate reset point that is approximately halfway to the trigger at rest position. The trigger pull from this intermediate reset point is 8.5 lbs (38 N). If the trigger is released all the way forward, this will engage the primary trigger reset and have a trigger pull of 6.5 lbs (29 N). To engage the intermediate reset, the trigger must be held to the rear while the slide is cycled, either manually or by the recoil of a round being fired.
    So, based on DAO but you also get a short, heavier reset halfway to the full DA reset.

  3. #23
    Expert russc2542's Avatar

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    Found a P30sk LEM at the pawn shop last night and it followed me home.

    darn you all, you made me do it!

  4. #24
    Somewhat Purple-ish rhino's Avatar

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    Anyone who is considering a double action/single action carry gun should also consider finding a gently used S&W 59XX series gun. The third gen S&W self-loaders pretty much invented the short trigger reset in single action and it took until recently for Sig, CZ, etc. to catch up in that regard.

    Given that, if you have a choice, the Sig Legion is the best bang for the buck. You have to put some money into any of the competitors to come close to it in terms of trigger. And even a Legion can be improved by people like Bruce Gray Guns or the Sig Armorer. Most people who rave about the customized CZs and Tanfoglios are comparing their guns to a stock P226 without the SRT and have not much if any experience with a Legion that's been given even more love and attention. You can probably get a lighter double action trigger pull with a CZ or clone, which is what many equate with "good." I don't. Pull weight is just one consideration and much of what you can do to lighten a double action trigger pull can potentially affect reliability.

    There's also the issue of sights. Much of that is personal preference, but the Xray sights that come standard on Legions are about as good as it gets for a carry gun for all lighting conditions.

    Some will say that the Sig has more muzzle flip than a CZ or Witness since the bore is higher. The geometry difference is a fact, but there is more to muzzle flip than just the height of the bore. I've owned a CZ75 and shot quite a few others and all of them had more muzzle flip than a Sig Sauer P226 Legion or Tac Ops. Of course, you can experiment with recoil and main springs to affect muzzle flip significantly, but that's not my bag. I want my guns to function 100% with factory new defense-oriented ammunition and not break small parts every few thousand rounds.



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  5. #25
    Expert russc2542's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhino View Post
    ...Some will say that the Sig has more muzzle flip than a CZ or Witness since the bore is higher. The geometry difference is a fact, but there is more to muzzle flip than just the height of the bore...
    You mean a complex physical action involving us water bags interacting with a mechanical device can't be watered down to a singe dimension? HERETIC!

  6. #26
    Somewhat Purple-ish rhino's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by russc2542 View Post
    You mean a complex physical action involving us water bags interacting with a mechanical device can't be watered down to a singe dimension? HERETIC!
    I'm suitably ashamed!



    "The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State."
    INDIANA CONSTITUTION
    Article 1 - Bill of Rights - Section 32

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    To prevail you must ACT!

  7. #27
    Master doddg's Avatar

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    I know I have no credibility, but I was alerted to this by a older guy I bought a gun from who used this in competitive shooting and it caused me to look it up and there were positive reviews on it:
    Bersa Thunder 9 Pro XT

    I know the word "Bersa" is enough to put anyone off, but apparently the Pro version of their 9mm is quite the gun.

    Review quote from thetruthaboutguns.com:
    The Thunder Pro 9 XT is based on the now ubiquitous Browning/Petter action.
    When I look at this gun, I see High Power-CZ75-Beretta 51/92-FNX. And thatís what it felt like too, but in many ways even better.

    The first, double-action pull clocked-in at 7 lbs. 10 oz. on my Lyman scale, with about 25mm of travel.
    Although fairly long, the DA pullís quite smooth with no grit or hang-ups throughout the process.
    The reset, and subsequent single action pulls are short and very crisp.
    The single-action pull has only 5mm of travel, and breaks at a light 3 lbs. 7 ozs.

    Accuracy throughout the cartridge spectrum was consistent and very good.
    The Team Never Quit 100gr frangible round scored the best group, averaging a two-inch five-round group from a bag at 25 yards.

    The Pro XT feels a lot like my duty Beretta 92fs.
    The Pro XT is not as pretty as its Italian cousin, but the Argentinian has better sights and a better grip.
    Itís more accurate and completely reliable.
    In fact, the Pro XT shoots and runs just as well as my Wilson Combat Beretta 92G.

    Just ran across after I ran into the guy who said this gun was "the best kept secret in the competitive shooting world."
    I know nothing of either, but he had 3 of them he showed me in his vehicle, and the fit and feel reminded me of the CZ I had had during the summer.
    However, I have never fired one.

  8. #28
    Grandmaster Dead Duck's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddg View Post
    I know I have no credibility, but I was alerted to this by a older guy I bought a gun from who used this in competitive shooting and it caused me to look it up and there were positive reviews on it:
    Bersa Thunder 9 Pro XT

    I know the word "Bersa" is enough to put anyone off, but apparently the Pro version of their 9mm is quite the gun.

    Review quote from thetruthaboutguns.com:
    The Thunder Pro 9 XT is based on the now ubiquitous Browning/Petter action.
    When I look at this gun, I see High Power-CZ75-Beretta 51/92-FNX. And thatís what it felt like too, but in many ways even better.

    The first, double-action pull clocked-in at 7 lbs. 10 oz. on my Lyman scale, with about 25mm of travel.
    Although fairly long, the DA pullís quite smooth with no grit or hang-ups throughout the process.
    The reset, and subsequent single action pulls are short and very crisp.
    The single-action pull has only 5mm of travel, and breaks at a light 3 lbs. 7 ozs.

    Accuracy throughout the cartridge spectrum was consistent and very good.
    The Team Never Quit 100gr frangible round scored the best group, averaging a two-inch five-round group from a bag at 25 yards.

    The Pro XT feels a lot like my duty Beretta 92fs.
    The Pro XT is not as pretty as its Italian cousin, but the Argentinian has better sights and a better grip.
    Itís more accurate and completely reliable.
    In fact, the Pro XT shoots and runs just as well as my Wilson Combat Beretta 92G.

    Just ran across after I ran into the guy who said this gun was "the best kept secret in the competitive shooting world."
    I know nothing of either, but he had 3 of them he showed me in his vehicle, and the fit and feel reminded me of the CZ I had had during the summer.
    However, I have never fired one.
    Must Own Soon!
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