RMR vs Irons for pistol

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  • gregkl

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    I did a search and found some older posts so I figure it's okay to start a new one.

    As some of you know, i have been struggling with eye issues for several years now. I am cross dominant with the need to wear "readers" for up close stuff including the front sight of a pistol. I have tried just about everything as far as vision tricks and am on my second try with those SSP glasses.

    I also have a fundamental issue with front sight focus. Everything I have ever been taught was to "keep your eye on the target." Focusing on the front sight to me doesn't seem to compute because ultimately if the front sight isn't pointing at the bullseye, I will miss, not matter how good my front sight focus is or my grip, trigger pull, etc. is.

    I have put optics on all my rifles at this point and being primarily a clays shotgun enthusiast, target focus is mandatory to bust birds.

    I don't really want to give up pistol, but I'm about to the end of my rope. I have already abandoned the idea of doing any IDPA/USPSA style shooting.

    Last weekend I got the opportunity to shoot a pistol with a red dot on it. I really liked it. Though the dot was "wiggly" it felt good to put the rounds closer together than I normally do.

    I'm not trying to talk myself into going red dot. I am a minimalist person and less is better for me. But am I swimming upstream at this point in my life?

    Do I just need to practice more with irons once I get my glasses figured out?

    Or should I look at getting a red dot?

    Extra detail: I have decided to buy a CZ P10C for my "do all" pistol. Home defense, range time, training classes, some (or maybe all) carry. And if I ever decide to do some kind of game, that to.
     

    EricG

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    I too have eye problems and need corrective lenses. Whether eye contacts or glasses. Without my glasses, I can barely see my sights at all. Add darkness and its a wrap.

    My thought is, in a SD situation, I may very well have my glasses fall or knocked from my face.

    I have been shooting a red dot for about 3 years now and it's the best thing out there for vision impaired shooters. I can instantaneously self diagnose lack of fundamentals with a red dot.

    I started with a RM06(3 moa dot) and I've settled in a RM04(7 moa dot). I am able to pick it up faster under recoil and the dot doesn't shake around as much or at least my eyes aren't able to pick up the "shake" as much.

    I can see the dot without my glasses. Although its like a 15 moa starburst, I can still accurately hit my target under 20 yards. The RM04 runs on Tritium/fiber optics, so no adjusting or having to remove to change a battery. With my testing, it is visible under every light condition.

    The best thing I've gotten out of red dots is theyve helped me be better with irons. Again, with the dot I can see what I'm doing wrong instantly. I just transfer that over to my irons and it works.

    I was never able to consistently shoot > 90 at 25 yards. Now I can.

    I say, if it's an advantage, do it.

    Sent from my VS810PP using Tapatalk
     

    gmcttr

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    ...I also have a fundamental issue with front sight focus. Everything I have ever been taught was to "keep your eye on the target." Focusing on the front sight to me doesn't seem to compute because ultimately if the front sight isn't pointing at the bullseye, I will miss, not matter how good my front sight focus is or my grip, trigger pull, etc. is.

    ...Do I just need to practice more with irons once I get my glasses figured out?

    Or should I look at getting a red dot?...

    I have always been taught to focus on the front sight as sight alignment is everything and I definitely shoot bullseye targets best with this technique. I have to wear readers to focus on the front sight. The target is blurred but with consistent sight alignment I can hit a blur with a reasonable group. Front/rear sight alignment is difficult if you are focusing on the target.

    Could I do better with a red dot...most likely yes, except I have astigmatism that leaves me unsure which part of the dot is the real dot. I do use red dots turned to low settings or lighted etched reticle sights on rifles with good results.

    If you don't have a strong astigmatism, plan on putting a red dot (reflex type) on your new pistol and never look back.
     

    JHB

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    I have cataracts in both eyes. I am cross eye dominant. My right eye has a astigmatism that is so bad any dot sight I pick up has four dots in it and scope cross hairs are so blurry they are just about un useable for precision shooting.

    I shoot both eyes open at all times. Bullseye optic or iron sights right hand left eye. Precision rifle left handed. Steel and USPSA handgun iron or optic right had left eye. Steel and USPSA rifle optic right hand the targets are big enough.

    Iron sights rifle and pistol your focus should be on the sights were the sights point is were the bullet goes. The target should be blurry. With a scope both should be in focus. Shot gun sighting is different from rifle and handgun.

    Your body will do what you tell it to do if you practice enough it will feel funny in the beginning. The more effort you put in the easier it gets and natural it will feel.
     

    crewchief888

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    ive worn glasses or contacts since 1972, and for several years i had bifocals. i started shooting USPSA again, and starting shooting steel challenge last spring. i have to have my glasses on to see what i'm shooting at, i desperately tried shooting rimfire irons, and sucked so bad at it, i was ready to give up. ive USPSA open since '96, and finally gave in, and put dots on both my rimfire guns.

    maybe it's just me, but it's almost like the dot is "superimposed" on the target, i get no blurryness, i dont see anything except the dot and target i shoot with 1 eye closed and always have.


    :cheers:
     

    Vigilant

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    RDS’s are a godsend for those of us with eye issues, IF, AND ONLY IF, you are willing to put in the time and money it costs to learn how it works. Buy a cheap dot and don’t practice, may as well save the cash. The learning curve for finding the dot is real, and it takes practice. Once you put in the time and reps though, they are worth their weight in gold. Trijicon RMR are the only words you should be saying at this time and place in the RDS world. Aimpoint has the ACRO, but it is mostly unobtanium, and will be for some time. ALL of the others are lacking, no exceptions.
     

    gregkl

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    Appreciate the feedback so far. Yeah, if I'm going to have the slide cut for a particular brand, I may as well go with Trijicon. I'd hate to cut it for another brand and then end up wanting to upgrade only to find out it won't work with my slide.

    I may have to give irons one more go. I really didn't realize it was so pricey to go with a red dot. I am probably looking at $700 or so not including the pistol and with me getting ready to plunk down $1800 on a shotgun, I don't think I'll be stretching, er blowing, my budget right now.:)
     

    WebSnyper

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    Appreciate the feedback so far. Yeah, if I'm going to have the slide cut for a particular brand, I may as well go with Trijicon. I'd hate to cut it for another brand and then end up wanting to upgrade only to find out it won't work with my slide.

    I may have to give irons one more go. I really didn't realize it was so pricey to go with a red dot. I am probably looking at $700 or so not including the pistol and with me getting ready to plunk down $1800 on a shotgun, I don't think I'll be stretching, er blowing, my budget right now.:)

    There are guns out there that are already setup to be optics ready from the factory, depending on make and model you are carrying now. Glock MOS, CZ P-10 OR models, etc with adapter plates for the most popular reflex sights. Might be worthwhile to do that rather than get one cut, again, depending on what you have now.
     

    gregkl

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    There are guns out there that are already setup to be optics ready from the factory, depending on make and model you are carrying now. Glock MOS, CZ P-10 OR models, etc with adapter plates for the most popular reflex sights. Might be worthwhile to do that rather than get one cut, again, depending on what you have now.

    I'm actually looking for a P10C. But those seem to be around $200 more than the non OR models. So I'm still looking at $700. However, just because I buy one set up doesn't mean I have to add the RMR.:)

    I could do that at a later date if I decide for sure that's the route I want to take.
     

    Vigilant

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    There are guns out there that are already setup to be optics ready from the factory, depending on make and model you are carrying now. Glock MOS, CZ P-10 OR models, etc with adapter plates for the most popular reflex sights. Might be worthwhile to do that rather than get one cut, again, depending on what you have now.
    And NONE of them do the job as well as a purpose built slide with a proper RDS. The MOS was made as an afterthought, something for everyone, one size fits all. They don’t do the job as well. Do your own research, and you’ll find that the folks who have been building and using these for years, all agree, RMR. The Dlta point comes close, but battery life sucks. The ACRO isn’t available but will most likely be the only real competition to the RMR.
     

    WebSnyper

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    And NONE of them do the job as well as a purpose built slide with a proper RDS. The MOS was made as an afterthought, something for everyone, one size fits all. They don’t do the job as well. Do your own research, and you’ll find that the folks who have been building and using these for years, all agree, RMR. The Dlta point comes close, but battery life sucks. The ACRO isn’t available but will most likely be the only real competition to the RMR.

    Got it, so custom done by a gunsmith sounds like the way to go if one wants to do this...

    Do the adapter plates, etc not do the trick properly or is the sight height not optimal on the OEM offerings?
     
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    Hawkeye7br

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    Staying in the cheap side, have you shot action pistol with fiber optic sights? I too can no longer see shotgun beads, but I put a fiber optic halfway down the rib & can once again hit clays. Perhaps shoot a friend's gun with fiber optics, if for no other reason than to eliminate that option from your choices.
     

    gregkl

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    Staying in the cheap side, have you shot action pistol with fiber optic sights? I too can no longer see shotgun beads, but I put a fiber optic halfway down the rib & can once again hit clays. Perhaps shoot a friend's gun with fiber optics, if for no other reason than to eliminate that option from your choices.

    Already have FO sights on my pistols. When it’s bright out it helps but the sight is still fuzzy. I sitting here reading a magazine and came across some type of contact lens that supposedly allows you to dump your readers. I’ll have to check them out.
     

    Hop

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    Here's the contacts you are thinking about. I'd like to try these myself.

    https://coopervision.com/contact-lenses/proclear-multifocal-toric

    I have an RMR Dual on my Canik TP9 SFx and it works well for aging eyes BUT you need the correct eyeglass for a dot too. My closer up ~24' focal length, computer screen reading, iron sights shooting glasses do not work well with a dot. My driving glasses work much better.

    I just today removed my MRO from a rifle because my next event will have small 8" targets at 300 yards. I need some magnification for that and my 3x flip to side behind the MRO looks like a bunch of grapes no matter what glasses I tried.

    One day, someone will develop a micro-prism pistol sight. Make it illuminated and us old eye guys will buy them by the ton.
     

    Maverick30

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    RDS’s are a godsend for those of us with eye issues, IF, AND ONLY IF, you are willing to put in the time and money it costs to learn how it works. Buy a cheap dot and don’t practice, may as well save the cash. The learning curve for finding the dot is real, and it takes practice. Once you put in the time and reps though, they are worth their weight in gold. Trijicon RMR are the only words you should be saying at this time and place in the RDS world. Aimpoint has the ACRO, but it is mostly unobtanium, and will be for some time. ALL of the others are lacking, no exceptions.

    Agreed on the Trijicon RMR. My first optics ready/equipped pistol was a Sig P320 RX which comes with the Sig Romeo1 from the factory. It's a nice enough red dot...when it's working. Within 2months of having the pistol I had to send in the RMR to be fixed due to some sort of power issue, the dot was turning on/off on it's own and the brightness was changing by itself. After I received the red dot back from Sig I haven't noticed any issues with it but still have issues trusting it. Now because the RX comes with the Romeo1 mounted from the factory, the slide is only milled to accept...the Romeo1. Therefore I'm in the process of trying to sell that pistol to fund a FN 509 Tactical that I can mount on RMR on.
     

    Ricnzak

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    Appreciate the feedback so far. Yeah, if I'm going to have the slide cut for a particular brand, I may as well go with Trijicon. I'd hate to cut it for another brand and then end up wanting to upgrade only to find out it won't work with my slide.

    I may have to give irons one more go. I really didn't realize it was so pricey to go with a red dot. I am probably looking at $700 or so not including the pistol and with me getting ready to plunk down $1800 on a shotgun, I don't think I'll be stretching, er blowing, my budget right now.:)

    My eyes view each red dot differently. Even different models of the same brand can be night and day difference in clairity. If you’re not in a hurry the upcoming NRA convention will be a good place to shop every different model to see what you like. Also dealers have some good dealsthere. I bought a Aimpoint Pro for $370.00 last time the NRA was in town.
     

    Ricnzak

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    I started with a RM06(3 moa dot) and I've settled in a RM04(7 moa dot). I am able to pick it up faster under recoil and the dot doesn't shake around as much or at least my eyes aren't able to pick up the "shake" as much.

    Ive wondered why handgun red dots go so large on the dot size.
     

    Vigilant

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    Got it, so custom done by a gunsmith sounds like the way to go if one wants to do this...

    Do the adapter plates, etc not do the trick properly or is the sight height not optimal on the OEM offerings?
    The adapter plates generally raise the RDS too high. Also there are problems mounting the plate, and mounting the sight, etc. they work as far as a lowest common denominator application for whatever Chinese sight is the most popular at this moment, but a purpose built option with an RMR is so far the standard by which all others are judged. Sage Industries’ Aaron Cowan has done extensive research, as has Suarez(despite what many think of him, he was at The forefront of RDS pistols), and many others. SOCOM just released a contract for several thousand Handfun Red Dot Optics, guess who got the contract? Yup Trijicon RMR.
     
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