New safty rule for I D P A.

[Spike Jones 5 2002]

I was shooting IDPA match at an open air range near Chesterton, In.
After a shooter finished his course.
He was chatting with the R.O. as he cleared his weapon.
He pulled the trigger and BANG.
After the initial shock. They laughed and continued.

Additional info,
The shooter continued on as if nothing happened.
I was very new to the IDPA shoot and to the club.
If I would have known then what I know now.
Both would have been called down and DQed.


That got me thinking.
IDPA should require the insertion of one of those chamber plug you get with every new weapon.
After you show the chamber is clear. you must insert the chamber plug with the flag showing.
Then close the slide.

The flags on most plugs are thin and very flexible.
They could also be trimmed to just show out of the slid.
But my idea is that you have to physically place it there where the bullet would be.
Holstered
Then you are declared "CLEAR".

I wrote my idea to the IDPA web site.
IDPA response, "We will discuss it at our 2021 meeting."

 

[rvb]

that'll never change.
discharge on showing clear should be a DQ. At least it used to be.... been 10+ yrs since I shot IDPA
flags could interfere with some holsters.
the BANG demonstrated the hammer down requirement did it's job and caught that the shooter screwed up. The real problem is IDPAs lack of consistent rule enforcement (laughing vs DQing the shooter)

-rvb

 

[shootersix]

did the shooter get a dq?

AND more importantly was the ro "excused from his duties?"

if it happened on my squad, i would have gone to the match director, and I really doubt the ro would ever "ro" again!

at our steel challenge match I've seen one competitor with his slide locked back, and a chamber flag in, while his gun was in a holster (kydex holster)

when I ro a match (steel challenge) I catch the bullet when they show clear(pull the slide back), and hand it back to them after I give the command to "flag it and bag it" (rimfire or carbine) or the "slide forward and hammer (or striker) down" command

sounds like the ro got complacent, and that's dangerous! laughing it off was not an appropriate action!

 

[Ark]

Unsafe behavior and an RO's refusal to issue a DQ when necessary is not a deficiency in the rules.

 

[Joegrz308]

As a IDPA Safety Officer, an AD is a DQ regardless of the details. Unload and show clear, slide forward, hammer down and holster.

More than likely, never removed the magazine which, would have shown an empty chamber but as soon as the slide went forward it picked up another round. Unsafe gun handling.

 

[04FXSTS]

I personally do not see that being adopted and in my opinion is not needed. Shooter has the first responsibility for this and should have been DQ'ed. As I was not there I will not judge the SO but if it was me I would not have been laughing. Was the SO being lax in checking the chamber? Was this a shooter that races through UASC so fast the SO does not have time to see the chamber? I have had shooters go through this faster than I can call the commands, so would that become the fault of the SO, I think not. When I have a shooter do this I don't care if they have holstered the gun, if I didn't get a look into the chamber they will go through UASC again at my speed. If they don't like that we will get the match director to resolve the situation. Jim.

 

[Dead Duck]

I was shooting IDPA match at an open air range near Chesterton, In.
After a shooter finished his course.
He was chatting with the R.O. as he cleared his weapon.
He pulled the trigger and BANG.
After the initial shock. They laughed and continued.

Additional info,
The shooter continued on as if nothing happened.
I was very new to the IDPA shoot and to the club.
If I would have known then what I know now.
Both would have been called down and DQed.


That got me thinking.
IDPA should require the insertion of one of those chamber plug you get with every new weapon.
After you show the chamber is clear. you must insert the chamber plug with the flag showing.
Then close the slide.

The flags on most plugs are thin and very flexible.
They could also be trimmed to just show out of the slid.
But my idea is that you have to physically place it there where the bullet would be.
Holstered
Then you are declared "CLEAR".

I wrote my idea to the IDPA web site.
IDPA response, "We will discuss it at our 2021 meeting."

I'll be damned!
Is that what those things are?

 

[Spike Jones 5 2002]

I personally do not see that being adopted and in my opinion is not needed. Shooter has the first responsibility for this and should have been DQ'ed. As I was not there I will not judge the SO but if it was me I would not have been laughing. Was the SO being lax in checking the chamber? Was this a shooter that races through UASC so fast the SO does not have time to see the chamber? I have had shooters go through this faster than I can call the commands, so would that become the fault of the SO, I think not. When I have a shooter do this I don't care if they have holstered the gun, if I didn't get a look into the chamber they will go through UASC again at my speed. If they don't like that we will get the match director to resolve the situation. Jim.

I remember as a young kid hearing my grand father and father discussing a new thing they are putting on cars. They did not see why a new car has to have lights on each side of the car. The driver flips a lever and the lights on one side of the car flashes. The driver is suppose to do this when he wants to turn right. He flips the lever up and the lights on the right side flash. If he pushes the lever down the light on the left side flashes and the driver wants to turn left. There was another innovation, when the driver steps on the brake peddle. Two red lights on the back of the car light up.

They were not needed. If the driver wants to turn right. he stuck his hand out the window and pointed up towards the sky. if he wanted to turn left. he pointed his hand straight out of the car. When he wanted to stop. he pointed his hand towards the ground.
Everyone did this all the time. Well except when it was raining or blowing snow or they just did not care to do it.

 

[Arthur Dent]

That's why when you are unloading and showing clear you don't joke around like an idiot. Drop the magazine, pull the slide back and visually verify the chamber is empty. Slide forward and pull the trigger. If two people are looking and not joking around that round in the chamber will be pretty obvious.

 

[Cameramonkey]

That's why when you are unloading and showing clear you don't joke around like an idiot. Drop the magazine, pull the slide back and visually verify the chamber is empty. Slide forward and pull the trigger. If two people are looking and not joking around that round in the chamber will be pretty obvious.

Yep. Probably was afraid to DQ because that would expose the SO's lack of attention. He OBVIOUSLY didnt actually see a clear chamber and told the shooter to proceed to the next step. A DQ would validate his error. No DQ, no error. Problem solved!

 

[amboy49]

did the shooter get a dq?

AND more importantly was the ro "excused from his duties?"

if it happened on my squad, i would have gone to the match director, and I really doubt the ro would ever "ro" again!

at our steel challenge match I've seen one competitor with his slide locked back, and a chamber flag in, while his gun was in a holster (kydex holster)

when I ro a match (steel challenge) I catch the bullet when they show clear(pull the slide back), and hand it back to them after I give the command to "flag it and bag it" (rimfire or carbine) or the "slide forward and hammer (or striker) down" command

sounds like the ro got complacent, and that's dangerous! laughing it off was not an appropriate action!

Not sure anywhere in the course material I read when studying to be an IDPA safety officer the proper command of “flag it and bag it” was included as a proper command. That off the cuff comment bothers me a little. Regardless, if the incident occurred as described I’m not sure the RO should be allowed to skate on this. I’m also not certain the shoot management should be totally absolved. At the very least the match director should have been notified and asked to weigh in on what happened.

I believe the appropriate commands now at the end of a course of fire are: “If finished, unload and show clear. I see clear . . . . . slide forward (for semi autos) and pull trigger . . . . . . . holster.”

There is a difference between “slide forward and hammer down” and “pull trigger.” With my Glock 34 I can manually drop the hammer and still have a live round in the chamber. By requiring the shooter to pull the trigger it removes the possibility of a live round remaining. When I first began shooting IDPA I was very uninitiated in gun handling and safety procedures. What I quickly learned was the no nonsense attitude and practice of strict adherence to proper and safe gun handling required by IDPA rules and common sense.

I now know that the rules are in place for a reason - and failure to adhere to them compromises everyone present.

 

[Spike Jones 5 2002]

You can not show clear by using a decocker.
The firing pin must strike with the same force.
The only exception is a drop out cylinder revolver.

Now this question popped into my mind.
How are revolvers cleared that had a gate?
The R.O. can not see the other chambers.
Does the shooter rotate the cylinder to see each chamber?

 

[crewchief888]

ive never shot an IDPA match, so i'm not familiar with the rules, but over the years ive shot a LOT of USPSA and steel matches. semi auto
centerfire pistols must show clear, slide down, hammer down (trigger must be pulled, decocking doesnt count) and holstered. rimfire rifle and pistol as well as PCC must have a chamber flag and the bolt closed on the flag before being bagged. typically the RO's range commands are "unload and show clear, if clear, flag and bag"

personally i think the shooter should have been DQ'd for an AD

ive had this happen to be at a steel match with my RF rifle, round stuck in the chamber that wouldnt extract, after racking the bolt several times, the round discharged and hit the ground.
the way the rule was explained to me was IF i had told the RO i have a round stuck, under his direction i could have fired that round into the berm downrange, i wouldnt have been DQ'd, but since i didnt, and the round impacted the ground it was considered an AD, and DQ.

the rule made sense to me, i took my DQ without question

 

[Steel and wood]

I am responsible for my pistol to show unloaded, show clear, slide forward and hammer down, if anything goes bang it’s on me I am in charge of the pistol. I think the shooter should have been DQ right then and there.
I do not think we need more rules just in force the safety rules we have now.

 

[Cameramonkey]

You can not show clear by using a decocker.
The firing pin must strike with the same force.
The only exception is a drop out cylinder revolver.

Now this question popped into my mind.
How are revolvers cleared that had a gate?
The R.O. can not see the other chambers.
Does the shooter rotate the cylinder to see each chamber?

How many gated revolvers do you see competing? (hint: NONE!)

Too many reloads in IDPA to make a gate practical. It just doesnt happen because they are wholly incompatible with IDPA. Might as well be a muzzle loader.

 

[amboy49]

I’ve been an SO at local club matches - nothing higher like a state match. During those matches occasionally a very good shooter will feel compelled to go through the process on his own from start to finish - I assume it’s because they are so practiced it’s almost second nature. They’ll aggressively rack the slide and catch the round in the air, release the slide forward, pull the trigger, and holster the gun in almost one fluid motion. At first I was intimidated because these types of fellows are obviously far above me in experience and ability. However, I realized that my job wasn’t to admire their gun handling expertise, my job was to keep the range safe for those present.

It usually only takes one time asking these types of shooters to repeat the process because their actions were so fast I couldn’t say without question the firearm was clear. When done in a non condescending way I’ve never had my request become an issue. As has been said, there is plenty of time for laughing and joking around with the SO during the match - just not when you have completed the course of fire and are clearing your gun.

 

[crewchief888]

i doubt that during an IDPA match you'd need to use the command "flag it and bag it"

in USPSA it's used for PCC, steel challenge for PCC, RF pistol, and RF rifle.

i dont shoot IDPA, but i'd assume the range commands aremuch like USPSA pistol, and steel challenge centerfire pistol

 

[igotdiesel2]

The correct command is: unload and show clear. If clear, slide forward (or close cylinder), pull trigger and holster. The SO should not say I see clear. It is the sole responsibility of the shooter. The shooter should have been DQed and yes the SO should have paid more attention to the chamber. When I SO I look for for the shooter to drop the mag, then a bullet to come out then an empty chamber.

I'm with Jim on some guys do it faster than you can say the commands.

2017 IDPA Rulebook
2.12.8 If Finished, Unload and Show Clear
This command will be issued when the shooter has apparently finished shooting the stage.If the shooter is finished, all ammunition will be removed from the firearm and a clear chamber/cylinder will be shown to the SO.If the shooter is not finished, the shooter should finish the stage and the command will be repeated.

2.12.9 If Clear, Slide Forward or Close Cylinder
Once the SO has inspected the chamber/cylinder and found it to be clear, this command will be issued and the shooter will comply.

2.12.10 Pull the Trigger
The shooter will point the firearm at a safe berm and pull the trigger to further verify that the chamber is clear.If the firearm fires, the shooter will be disqualified from the match.This requirement also applies to firearms with a de-cocker or magazine disconnect.For firearms with a magazine disconnect,an empty magazine, or dummy magazine must be inserted before the trigger is pulled, and then removed again.This command is not needed for revolvers.
2.12.11 Holster
The shooter will safely holster the firearm

 

[schmart]

Although I understand your desire to improve safety, IMO this proposal would not do that. I would not be able to holster any of my IDPA legal firearms with a chamber indicator inserted. I doubt there are any holsters that would work either. That would leave me to have to use a bag, etc. and then carry it in my hand all day. I would then be hampered pasting targets and see no end to issues. As others have pointed out, the shooter should have been DQd and therefore would learn to fully clear his firearm. Since the other procedural rules were followed, there really was no more danger than during the actual stage. Finally, even IF everything fails and the shooter ends up holstering with a loaded firearm, how is that any different than all those who carry on a daily basis?
Just my opinion.
--Rick

 

[Dead Duck]

Screw SAFETY!

[video=youtube;4hiTrgzHhVk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hiTrgzHhVk[/video]