NICS checks counts are less than worthless for estimating gun sales

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  • Phase2

    Grandmaster
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    Pretty much all of us have seen the tables or charts showing total NICS checks over time and how they have gone up or down. Barack Obama was repeated identified as "salesman of the month", "salesman of the year", and "salesman of all time" based on these counts. While that is still true, the NICS counts that you have been commonly viewing have become less and less useful since 2016 for even estimating firearm sales.

    The problem: NICS checks are being used more and more for things not related to firearm purchases and license issuance. For example, NICS checks are rerun in some states when you buy ammunition, do private transfers, etc, (are they done at traffic stops???). A more detailed breakdown shows that in many states and for the nation, more NICS checks are done for "license checks/rechecks" than for all purchases combined. In the first nine months of 2019 and in 12 months of 2015 (last year before license "rechecks" started):

    State2019 License check/recheckLicense %2019 Purchases2015 License check/recheckLicense %2015 Purchases
    Indiana924,70077%275,100639,30060%430,300
    Illinois3,196,30092%276,700838,00067%408,600
    Ohio112,30026%324,10095,30013%624,000
    US+territories11,038,00056%8,559,4008,782,00040%13,385,100
    Constitutional carry states generally have lower license checks and a couple even had 0% license checks.

    Unfortunately, as states implement additional NICS checks for all kinds of non-gun purchase and license issuance activities, the value of using the commonly quoted NICS checks numbers for even estimating gun sales becomes less and less useful. The commonly used first FBI report on national statistics by month/year has this inflation. The second FBI report on state statistics by month has this inflation. You have to go to the third or fourth FBI reports on detailed state statistics before you can see the discrepancy. I wonder if recent estimates of 300+ million firearms in private hands or recent high gun sales estimates aren't substantially off because of this flaw.

    Bottom line: We've always known that NICS was never an ideal way to get an estimate of firearm sales. Unfortunately, it is becoming even less useful now.

    Sources: NICS Checks Reveal Americans’ Changing Gun Purchasing Preferences, FBI NICS reports
     

    actaeon277

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    And?
    They've always been viewed as inaccurate.
    But they were the only thing they had to go by.
    Is there another better method?
     

    Phase2

    Grandmaster
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    No, I don't have a better answer, but my point is the basic NICS numbers are no longer a useful guide. I'll repeat:

    Bottom line: We've always known that NICS was never an ideal way to get an estimate of firearm sales. Unfortunately, it is becoming even less useful now.

    When the number of NICS checks being run for buying ammunition and traffic stops is higher than the number for actually buying guns and those ratios vary highly from state to state, then it's value for estimating firearm sales is entirely lost. We can't reasonably use NICS for even estimating any more.
     

    1775usmarine

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    It also doesn't factor in if you buy more than one gun on a single check. Unless things have changed but highly unlikely.
     

    Ingomike

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    That is what we've been saying for years and years and it is still true. However, the number of "permit rechecks" in 2019 in Indiana has been over 100x the number of multi-gun purchases. Multi-gun isn't what's throwing off the numbers any more.

    If you look at the state and type of search data, how is that "thrown off" from what we have always had? Probably just lazy journalists that think math is hard and want quick total number to work...
     

    Phase2

    Grandmaster
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    Actually, I'm the one who did the math in the OP using the FBI data. The "permit rechecks" started in 2016 and have been growing as a percentage of all NICS checks every year since.

    Basic NICS check numbers have always been a bad way to estimate sales. License background checks were always included in the total. But, they are now even less useful since 2016.
     

    Ingomike

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    Actually, I'm the one who did the math in the OP using the FBI data. The "permit rechecks" started in 2016 and have been growing as a percentage of all NICS checks every year since.

    Basic NICS check numbers have always been a bad way to estimate sales. License background checks were always included in the total. But, they are now even less useful since 2016.

    I am confused. If one can see the numbers for handgun, long gun, other, multiple, vs permit, permit recheck, and admin, why are they not a reasonable way to determine total gun sales. Surely not precise, but reasonable.
     

    russc2542

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    If you dig deeper in the data they have monthly by purpose.

    https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/nics-checks-reveal-americans-changing-gun-purchasing-preferences/

    WTF, Illinois is doing 3 million rechecks a month.

    And yes, there are multiple but we do not know how many were purchased.

    So that's why it goes down so often... basically a DOS by overload!

    I am confused. If one can see the numbers for handgun, long gun, other, multiple, vs permit, permit recheck, and admin, why are they not a reasonable way to determine total gun sales. Surely not precise, but reasonable.

    because most places citing a number cite "total number of NICS checks" and don't ready any deeper into it.
     

    Phase2

    Grandmaster
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    I am confused. If one can see the numbers for handgun, long gun, other, multiple, vs permit, permit recheck, and admin, why are they not a reasonable way to determine total gun sales. Surely not precise, but reasonable

    You understand it perfectly, except...

    because most places citing a number cite "total number of NICS checks" and don't ready any deeper into it.

    Precisely and russc2542 gets the rep points. You never see the detailed numbers for NICS checks when they get updated unless you decide to go and look for it yourself at the FBI web site. Whenever you see a story on the latest "record NICS checks" or whether it has raised or declined since last year, they are talking about the total NICS checks which at this point is more than double the firearm NICS checks.

    To make this clearer, take a look at the basic FBI NICS numbers. Those are the numbers you will see quoted in the news periodically. Note that the total NICS checks for 9 months of 2019 is 20,464,500? Well, the actual new firearm sales number is actually much closer to 8,559,400. The numbers were at least closer until 2015, but they've been getting farther apart each year since then due to regulations requiring NICS checks for all kinds of things besides firearm purchases (buying ammo in some states, traffic stops, etc).
     
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    Ingomike

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    So that's why it goes down so often... basically a DOS by overload!



    because most places citing a number cite "total number of NICS checks" and don't ready any deeper into it.

    You understand it perfectly, except...



    Precisely and russc2542 gets the rep points. You never see the detailed numbers for NICS checks when they get updated unless you decide to go and look for it yourself at the FBI web site. Whenever you see a story on the latest "record NICS checks" or whether it has raised or declined since last year, they are talking about the total NICS checks which at this point is more than double the firearm NICS checks.

    To make this clearer, take a look at the basic FBI NICS numbers. Those are the numbers you will see quoted in the news periodically. Note that the total NICS checks for 9 months of 2019 is 20,464,500? Well, the actual new firearm sales number is actually much closer to 8,559,400. The numbers were at least closer until 2015, but they've been getting farther apart each year since then due to regulations requiring NICS checks for all kinds of things besides firearm purchases (buying ammo in some states, traffic stops, etc).


    "So so what we have here is a failure to communicate", er, properly research as in real journalism not fake news, but that is work. LOL.

    Does that failure to properly report hurt us? Surely researchers will use proper numbers.
     

    Phase2

    Grandmaster
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    "So so what we have here is a failure to communicate", er, properly research as in real journalism not fake news, but that is work. LOL.

    Does that failure to properly report hurt us? Surely researchers will use proper numbers.

    John Lott maybe. He's a serious and knowledgeable firearm researcher, but he has a hard time getting his info recognized among non-gun owners. Too many people (even among gun owners) incorrectly believe that NICS checks are pretty close to the correct number except for that multi-gun purchase category

    What is a recheck? Someone that has a license and is rechecked by Law Enforcement at random? Seems to be a sure fire way to bring the system to a halt by overwhelming it.

    Firstly, NICS is run as part of the background check for most firearm license/permit issuances. That has been included in the NICS totals since it started in 1998. It started with only a few states in 1998, but expanded to the vast majority of states today. So, the basic NICS number has always been inflated using license/permit issuance numbers. However since 2016, a number of states have been doing "rechecks" due to changes in their own laws/regulations. You can easily see these license checks/rechecks numbers over time in this detail report.

    This isn't "at random" as far as I know. In many states, a NICS check can be rerun on you because you buy ammunition, are stopped by the police or other reasons. Illinois has expanded "rechecks" the most. More than 1 in 7 NICS checks in the entire nation this year are Illinois NICS rechecks (about 3 of 20 million). However, Indiana is actually 3rd with about 700,000 rechecks (vs. about 225K license checks and 275K firearm purchases)! Why is Indiana doing so many checks beyond purchases and license issuances? I don't know, but my best guess is that NICS is being rechecked every time a gun owner is hit with a traffic stop.

    Even if some consider that a reasonable thing to do, it still makes my original point that the total NICS check numbers are deviating farther and farther from actual gun purchase numbers.
     
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    Cameramonkey

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    Rechecks could also be big box stores that dont follow federal law and require an explicit "proceed" before selling a firearm? Some stores wont transfer after the allowed 3 days without a "denied", and many times the ATF doesnt bother to follow up and send a "proceed" to the store assuming they will simply follow the law and transfer the gun eventually. So the guy comes back and they call him in again. (hopefully that time he gets a proceed)
     

    Phase2

    Grandmaster
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    Possibly those are called rechecks, but if so that is only a very small percentage, not 3x the number of firearm sales.
     

    Slapstick

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    Rechecks could also be big box stores that dont follow federal law and require an explicit "proceed" before selling a firearm? Some stores wont transfer after the allowed 3 days without a "denied", and many times the ATF doesnt bother to follow up and send a "proceed" to the store assuming they will simply follow the law and transfer the gun eventually. So the guy comes back and they call him in again. (hopefully that time he gets a proceed)

    A few corrections. One, Federal law states you MAY transfer a firearm after 3 days not that you have to transfer the firearm. It's up the dealer. In fact the Feds prefer you not transfer the firearm until you get a proceed from NICS. The reason why a lot of FFL's will not transfer is that after the 3 day wait and if the background check comes back denied you will get a phone a call from the FBI inquiring if you transferred the firearm. It's easier and a lot less painful for the FFL if they didn't transfer the firearm than to dig up all the info to give to the Feds so an ATF agent can go collect the firearm. Also in today's litigious society it's not worth taking the chance of transferring a firearm until you get a proceed.

    Two, it's the FBI not the ATF that does the background checks so it would be the FBI that would send a proceed except it's not their responsibility to do so. It is the dealers responsibility to check back with NICS on the status of the background check.

    Three. The FBI has 30 days to respond after witch time the the background check drops off their system and the individual can again attempt to to complete the background check. It's been my experience that anytime an individual has tried to complete a NICS check before 30 days is up has always return a delayed. So it's pointless for an FFL to rerun a delayed chck until the 30 days is up. Of course that doesn't mean that the person hasn't gone to several different guns shops trying to buy a gun and getting delayed most of the time because the system already has an open case on them.
     

    Phase2

    Grandmaster
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    Does anyone have numbers (or an estimate based on experience) on what percentage of firearm sale NICS checks are delayed/denied?
     

    Ingomike

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    I just disagree with the premise of the thread and title. They make it seem as if something is wrong and that is just not the case. The data is there, it would make more sense to post that idiots use the wrong numbers for their points, but data set seems good to me. The thread seems to blame the NICS data when the blame needs to be pointed elsewhere.
     

    n9tkf

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    Just before the earth ends.
    I just disagree with the premise of the thread and title. They make it seem as if something is wrong and that is just not the case. The data is there, it would make more sense to post that idiots use the wrong numbers for their points, but data set seems good to me. The thread seems to blame the NICS data when the blame needs to be pointed elsewhere.
    If you are for or against you can pull whatever data makes the point of view valid. But if you dig into the data it might tell a different story.

    I am concerned that Indiana may be using NICS for traffic stops. Is NICS supposed to be used for that purpose?
     
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