Buying a "Ghost Gun" from someone

[Keith_Indy]

What is the legality of buying or trading for a ghost gun from someone?

From what I've read, they should put some sort of serial number on the frame to be legal.

Any advice?

 

[Ark]

As I understand it there is no current case law answering this question. It is illegal to manufacturer with the intent to sell without being licensed. Anything sold, private sale or otherwise, does need to be serialized. "Intent" is a notoriously squishy term, how exactly are you going to prove that you never "intended" to sell the gun when you built it, but only changed your mind later? Got a quarter mil sitting around in the bank to pay a lawyer to take that one all the way to SCOTUS when you get hooked up for being an unlicensed manufacturer?

80% lowers are cheap. Strip the parts out and run it through the band saw a few times if you don't want it anymore.

 

[Keith_Indy]

I would be the one receiving the finished firearm in trade.

 

[doublesharp]

It's my understanding that a modern firearm (post 1968) without a serial # is against the law to possess.

 

[long coat]

You can have a gun without a serial #, you can even buy a gun from a FFL without a serial #.

 

[Ggreen]

It's my understanding that a modern firearm (post 1968) without a serial # is against the law to possess.

This is false

 

[doublesharp]

I obviously don't know what a ghost gun is?

 

[CampingJosh]

I obviously don't know what a ghost gun is?

"Untraceable" gun. The most common example would be an AR made from an 80% lower receiver. Because it wasn't a firearm when sold as an 80%, that manufacturer didn't need to put a serial number on it.

So BATFE has no record of its existence, its manufacturer, or its ownership history. Anyone trying to track that information down might as well be looking for a ghost.

 

[1775usmarine]

Who's selling proton packs? If its under $500 thats a good deal.

 

[jsx1043]

But does it have a shoulder thing that goes up? That’s what makes it dangerous.

 

[stacy]

No, a license is not required to make a firearm solely for personal use. However, a license is required to manufacture firearms for sale or distribution. The law prohibits a person from assembling a non–sporting semiautomatic rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as well as firearms that cannot be detected by metal detectors or x–ray machines. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF. Hope this helps.

 

[STFU]

I think I know the answer to this but...
What happens if a a friend completes a build (EG: 80% lower) and "gifts" it to his son (the son is NOT prohibited from owning or purchasing firearms on his own)?

 

[Leadeye]

A real "ghost gun" the Grey Ghost P-38.

Made on German machinery by the French after the end of WW2 they were supposed to provide new arms for the French military but ended up being surplus and stored for police use. Picked up by the SDECE they turn up in different places around the world where French colonial interests or the Legion had conflicts.

 

[ditcherman]

As I understand it there is no current case law answering this question. It is illegal to manufacturer with the intent to sell without being licensed. Anything sold, private sale or otherwise, does need to be serialized. "Intent" is a notoriously squishy term, how exactly are you going to prove that you never "intended" to sell the gun when you built it, but only changed your mind later? Got a quarter mil sitting around in the bank to pay a lawyer to take that one all the way to SCOTUS when you get hooked up for being an unlicensed manufacturer?

80% lowers are cheap. Strip the parts out and run it through the band saw a few times if you don't want it anymore.

Do you have a link to this idea that is needs to be serialized? I can't find it anywhere.

OP
It does come down to intent, the builder (doesn't have anything to do with the buyer) cannot manufacture with the intent of selling. If the maker makes with the intention of selling it's illegal. So the only way they can prove it is by proving so many sales they can call the maker a manufacturer, which is illegal. It's basically unprovable that you (or the maker) are guilty, unless you or the maker are really guilty, via many sales, generally considered 4 or more a year I believe. It's hard to pin them down on this.

To me, it boils down to this; if the person you are buying it from seems like they are making bunch of them with intent I would shy away, even though there is no way that you could get in trouble. If they just have one they are willing to sell go for it, there is nothing wrong or illegal with that. As for serial number, what good would it do? There is no such thing as a registration, and it's not illegal to own an unserialized weapon. If I had one that I changed my mind on and would sell and the buyer wanted a serial number on it I'd tell him go ahead put one on it, what difference does it make who does it or if its even done?

Edit to add: if your worried about theft or ID for other reasons you can always add markings, hidden or in plain view, and have a picture or description for proof.

 

[KellyinAvon]

On this subject: pre-GCA 1968 bolt gun, 24" barrel, internal magazine holds 4 rounds. Only markings are the caliber. The original owner still possesses the gun. Should the owner seek to have it serialized? [SARCASM FONT]After owning it for over 50 years it's obvious the plan was to sell this "ghost gun" all along and actually stick it to the man before the phrase came into vogue. This of course is why the rifle is chambered in a rather obscure caliber and not .30-06 or .243 or .308 Win or any other caliber for which you can buy a metric crap-ton of ammo, or at least most people have heard of.[SARCASM FONT]

Thanks!

 

[ditcherman]

On this subject: pre-GCA 1968 bolt gun, 24" barrel, internal magazine holds 4 rounds. Only markings are the caliber. The original owner still possesses the gun. Should the owner seek to have it serialized? [SARCASM FONT]After owning it for over 50 years it's obvious the plan was to sell this "ghost gun" all along and actually stick it to the man before the phrase came into vogue. This of course is why the rifle is chambered in a rather obscure caliber and not .30-06 or .243 or .308 Win or any other caliber for which you can buy a metric crap-ton of ammo, or at least most people have heard of.[SARCASM FONT]

Thanks!

The gun is legal, so I wouldn't know why. It's grandfathered in.
[FONT=&quot]
The message seems to be, if it isn’t there, it better not have ever been there. However, there appears to be a tricky period between the enactment of the NFA in 1934 and the GCA in 1968:[/FONT]

• Suppose there is a non-NFA firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm has no serial number. However, the firearm never had a serial number. The lack of a serial number does not render the firearm illegal.
• Suppose there is a firearm which was manufactured POST October 22, 1968. If the firearm has no serial number, and never had a serial number, the lack of a serial number renders the firearm illegal. [Except a non-NFA home manufacture that you have no intent to sell, which we will explain later.]
• Suppose there is a firearm which was manufactured POST October 22, 1968. The firearm had a serial number, but it has been removed. Possession of this firearm is illegal.
• Suppose there is a firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm did have a serial number, as the manufacturer had utilized serial numbers on its firearms voluntarily. However, the serial number was removed for aesthetic or other reasons AFTEROctober 22, 1968. Possession of the firearm is illegal.
• Suppose there is a non-NFA firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm did have a serial number, as the manufacturer had utilized serial numbers on its firearms voluntarily. This serial number was removed BEFORE October 22, 1968. Under the GCA, possession of the firearm is illegal. However, this is the most difficult scenario we will discuss, and here’s why:

The full link are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal
​I can imagine a ffl that wants to buy it may need it serialized but I don't know that. If the original owner sells it, it's still legal to own. There is no need to make it a traceable transaction is there?

 

[KellyinAvon]

The gun is legal, so I wouldn't know why. It's grandfathered in.
[FONT=&amp]
The message seems to be, if it isn’t there, it better not have ever been there. However, there appears to be a tricky period between the enactment of the NFA in 1934 and the GCA in 1968:[/FONT]

• Suppose there is a non-NFA firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm has no serial number. However, the firearm never had a serial number. The lack of a serial number does not render the firearm illegal.
• Suppose there is a firearm which was manufactured POST October 22, 1968. If the firearm has no serial number, and never had a serial number, the lack of a serial number renders the firearm illegal. [Except a non-NFA home manufacture that you have no intent to sell, which we will explain later.]
• Suppose there is a firearm which was manufactured POST October 22, 1968. The firearm had a serial number, but it has been removed. Possession of this firearm is illegal.
• Suppose there is a firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm did have a serial number, as the manufacturer had utilized serial numbers on its firearms voluntarily. However, the serial number was removed for aesthetic or other reasons AFTEROctober 22, 1968. Possession of the firearm is illegal.
• Suppose there is a non-NFA firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm did have a serial number, as the manufacturer had utilized serial numbers on its firearms voluntarily. This serial number was removed BEFORE October 22, 1968. Under the GCA, possession of the firearm is illegal. However, this is the most difficult scenario we will discuss, and here’s why:

The full link are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal
​I can imagine a ffl that wants to buy it may need it serialized but I don't know that. If the original owner sells it, it's still legal to own. There is no need to make it a traceable transaction is there?

Thanks D! It would be a private transfer. Just trying to maintain my "I'm so legal I'm boring" status.

 

[seldon14]

The gun is legal, so I wouldn't know why. It's grandfathered in.
[FONT=&quot]
The message seems to be, if it isn’t there, it better not have ever been there. However, there appears to be a tricky period between the enactment of the NFA in 1934 and the GCA in 1968:[/FONT]

• Suppose there is a non-NFA firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm has no serial number. However, the firearm never had a serial number. The lack of a serial number does not render the firearm illegal.
• Suppose there is a firearm which was manufactured POST October 22, 1968. If the firearm has no serial number, and never had a serial number, the lack of a serial number renders the firearm illegal. [Except a non-NFA home manufacture that you have no intent to sell, which we will explain later.]
• Suppose there is a firearm which was manufactured POST October 22, 1968. The firearm had a serial number, but it has been removed. Possession of this firearm is illegal.
• Suppose there is a firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm did have a serial number, as the manufacturer had utilized serial numbers on its firearms voluntarily. However, the serial number was removed for aesthetic or other reasons AFTEROctober 22, 1968. Possession of the firearm is illegal.
• Suppose there is a non-NFA firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm did have a serial number, as the manufacturer had utilized serial numbers on its firearms voluntarily. This serial number was removed BEFORE October 22, 1968. Under the GCA, possession of the firearm is illegal. However, this is the most difficult scenario we will discuss, and here’s why:

The full link are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal
​I can imagine a ffl that wants to buy it may need it serialized but I don't know that. If the original owner sells it, it's still legal to own. There is no need to make it a traceable transaction is there?

An FFL can buy, sell, or trade a pre 68 non serialized gun same as any other.

 

[Cameramonkey]

An FFL can buy, sell, or trade a pre 68 non serialized gun same as any other.

What about a post 2000 non serialized gun? Because thats what we are talking about. (apologies if I missed something after a few beers)

Id say if you want to buy an 80%, dont. If you want to build an 80% DO, but its yours and only yours unless you want to become a licensed manufacturer. (which negates any profit from the sale of your 80%) They allow us to make our own, but there is no mechanism to allow us to sell it. Thats the rub.

My opinion is move on, it cant be that important. After all, you are buying a lower built most likely with hand tools, a far cry from a machine shop with tight tolerances. Its like paying used car prices for a car some guy cobbled together in his garage on a salvage title. It SHOULD be within spec, but could be slightly off so you might need to baby it a bit.

I could be wrong.

 

[88E30M50]

One thing to consider is that if you buy this gun and then decide to later sell it, you will have a lot harder of a time finding a buyer for a non-serialized gun than normal. The very same question that you have today will come back to haunt you when potential buyers are asking it.

If it’s an AR, and it’s a really good deal, you could always buy it, move the parts over to a $60 stripped lower and then just scrap the unserialized lower.