Let's talk about "Brandishing"

[LANShark42]

Assuming one has a valid LTCH, is this even a thing in Indiana? Can someone quote both the law(s) governing brandishing in Indiana and the practical aspects of it? Since I'm allowed to open carry, is there any circumstance under which I could be charged with brandishing here?

Thanks

 

[OurDee]

You may find all your answers in this previous thread:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...e/365404-brandishing.html?365404=#post5424035

 

[jsharmon7]

Brandishing doesn’t exist. Intimidation as a Level 5 would be the closest thing.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Not in Indiana...

 

[actaeon277]

No brandishing in Indiana.
But, if I remember right, there are 3 laws that can be used instead.

Pointing.
Intimidation.
and I can't remember the 3rd. Something about creating a dangerous situation*** I think.

What the charge is, would depend on what you were doing.
Pointing a gun at someone..
Using your gun to coerce someone..
Waving your gun around in a crowd..


Guy Relford recently discussed this (in the last 2 months I think), on his "gun guy" show.

 

[bwframe]

Doesn't it depend whether you are in a "peaceful protest" or not?

 

[actaeon277]

Doesn't it depend whether you are in a "peaceful protest" or not?

You mean like in Indy, stopping traffic with drawn guns?

 

[cbhausen]

Here we go (again)... Jeez...

 

[worddoer]

As I understand Indiana law (I'm no attorney, you get what you paid for) if your gun is holstered and you are open carrying or your gun shows while semi-concealed carrying, there is no "brandishing" law to be concerned with here. The is a deal in some states, but not here.

However, if you draw your weapon, there needs to be evidence that you reasonably believed it was necessary to protect your or someone else's life. Otherwise the laws that actaeon mentioned above could come into play.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Assuming one has a valid LTCH, is this even a thing in Indiana? Can someone quote both the law(s) governing brandishing in Indiana and the practical aspects of it? Since I'm allowed to open carry, is there any circumstance under which I could be charged with brandishing here?

Thanks

Let's not.

LAN, "brandishing" is a Southern crime which via the osmosis of the NRA classes (based in Virginia) oozed its way into the larger gun culture. Indiana has no such offense.

You want to look at Intimidation and Pointing a Firearm.

Start with Johnson and let me know if you have questions.

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/in-supreme-court/1125108.html

 

[Kirk Freeman]

However, if you draw your weapon, there needs to be evidence that you reasonably believed it was necessary to protect your or someone else's life.

The weapon need NOT be drawn. Please read Johnson.

 

[drillsgt]

I don't think it's much of an issue in IN. When I lived in MI and particularly prior to the shall issue in 2000-2001 it was a problem there. People that had the rare concealed carry permit would be hit with a brandishing due to holstered guns being seen. Those I knew luckily didn't have it go anywhere because it was nonsense. The police in general were very protective of that perk and fought the shall issue back then. The definition was pretty vague and amounted to "Michigan law prohibits pointing, waving, or displaying a firearm with the intent to cause fear in another person" I think this was clarified a bit more in 2002 in an AG opinion. I don't think it's been an issue there for years though.

 

[KLB]

Seems like a bad decision to me.

In this case, evidence that Johnson displayed a firearm combined with telling Kreczmer “don't even think it,” which was preceded by two obscene remarks, was sufficient for a trier of fact to conclude that Johnson communicated a threat within the meaning of the intimidation statute, namely:  Johnson expressed by his words and actions an intention to unlawfully injure Kreczmer.   The evidence was also sufficient to show that Johnson threatened Kreczmer with the intent to place him in fear of retaliation for a prior lawful act, namely:  asking Johnson to move the car.

How do they interpret the display of the handgun as placing him in fear for asking to move the car? Seems much more like a warning to not initiate a physical confrontation.

 

[jagee]

The weapon need NOT be drawn. Please read Johnson.

I read it, and because this is INGO I must point out the fail in word selection.

In his possession, officers found a loaded 9 mm *automatic handgun along with two **clips and a holster.   He also possessed a valid handgun ***permit.

*semi automatic
**magazines
***license

 

[maxwelhse]

The weapon need NOT be drawn. Please read Johnson.

That was an interesting read.

After perusing that, combined with other INGO lawyerin' (that might not have been from actual attorneys), my general take away is:

POINTING is illegal in Indiana, but "brandishing" is not.
INTIMIDATION is illegal in Indiana, but simply displaying a firearm is not enough to make that case. Running your mouth, or other a-hattery, while doing so appears to be the dividing line. Bonus points if you do that to a cop.

So, wise or not, it appears you can draw and NOT point at someone, and not say or do something stupid, and not be committing a crime. So it appears you can just walk around with a pistol in your hand if you want, the same as you would with a long gun, as ill advised as that may be.

Have I covered the Cliffs Notes to at least 90% here?

 

[DadSmith]

In my 20's I stopped at a rest area on I70 west of Indianapolis while using the urinal a guy came in with knife in hand ask for my wallet I showed him my ccw he ran. I Didn't even take it out of the iwb holster. What changes would I get for that?

 

[rosejm]

However, if you draw your weapon, there needs to be evidence that you reasonably believed it was necessary to protect your or someone else's life. Otherwise the laws that actaeon mentioned above could come into play.

*EDIT I was slow. Our INGO advisors have already beat me to the punch with actual relevant case law.
Likely this would be FINE (though IAANAL). That's just open carry w/o a holster. No requirement listed in IC that your handgun must be holstered.

Though, your other actions with the handgun in your hands could present issues.

At the low ready, pointed in a safe direction while giving verbal commands? No problem.
Pointed at someone w/o cause, or waving around and ranting to yourself? Likely problems.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to maxwelhse again.

I think that covers it for us common folk.

In my 20's I stopped at a rest area on I70 west of Indianapolis while using the urinal a guy came in with knife in hand ask for my wallet I showed him my ccw he ran. I Didn't even take it out of the iwb holster.

Was that before or after he saw your gun?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Guys, after the Rainwater nonsense thread, I am almost out of bourbon but let me pour a few fingers here.

POINTING is illegal in Indiana, but "brandishing" is not.

I understand that the primate behavior of yelling and waving sticks is ingrained in all of us for the past, what, 500,000 years, but we must get beyond our base selves and be disciplined.

Let's stop looking for excuses to wave guns around; it is what our ancestors tell us to do, wave sticks, scream and jump up and down. I know that's what people do, wave guns around, I see it every week if not every day.

Let's only touch the guns when their is a legal basis to do so.

In my 20's I stopped at a rest area on I70 west of Indianapolis while using the urinal a guy came in with knife in hand ask for my wallet I showed him my ccw he ran. I Didn't even take it out of the iwb holster. What changes would I get for that?

None, self-defense against a forcible felony is not a crime.

 

[maxwelhse]

Let's stop looking for excusing to wave guns around. I know that's what people do, wave guns around, I see it every week if not every day.

I think you radically misread me if you think that's where I was headed here. There's a big difference between "legal" and "wise" and I thought I was careful to make that distinction in my wording. If this has now become an opinion thread on a person walking around with a gun in their hand while conducting normal affairs, then my response is a solid "no", legal or not. I don't condone all sorts of other legal, but stupid, behavior either.

Sidebar: You see people waiving guns around all the time in real life? I have never once seen this out in the wild as just a regular citizen.

 

[LANShark42]

Thanks, folks! I appreciate all of the info.