Military Training, and "No Live Turn-in".

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  • Sigblaster

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    This topic came to mind, and I think it would be a fun distraction from all the seriousness in the country right now.

    A little background for those who haven't experienced this. In training, units are issued live and blank ammunition for training purposes on an annual fiscal year basis that runs from October to September of the next year. This is all part of the unit's annual budget. If you don't use all the training ammo in one year, you may not get as much ammo the next year, so unit commanders are determined to expend all of their ammo every year, regardless of need, so they don't get less next year, regardless of need. For example, about August or September, a commander realizes that they've been allocated 50K rounds, and have only used 40K, so they really need to start expending ammo. Don't try to use the logic that maybe their allocation should be cut, if that's all they really need, because no commander wants their budget to be cut, regardless of whether it should be. It's an ego thing.

    With blank ammo, it's pretty easy. They don't typically require much, if any residue turn-in, except ammo cans. Residue turn-in is the parts you have to return to prove you expended the ammo. Blank small arms ammo and disintegrating belt links are typically expended in areas where it is not practical to recover it. Smoke grenade pull rings and flare end caps require a high percentage of turn-in.

    Well, you can imagine what happens when you're in a foxhole in late September, and you've got 2000 rounds of M60 blanks, and it's ENDEX (end of the exercise), so nobody to shoot at), and you're told to expend all your ammo (no live turn-in in late September) and fill in your foxhole (can't leave open foxholes in training areas). Some people (me :)) link belt after belt and go crazy. Some people combine the two requirements, and bury live blank ammo in the bottom of their foxholes, and say "yup, I shot all my ammo", because they don't want to have to clean their guns from all that. These are not my kind of people. Blanks or live, you put a machinegun in my hands, and I'm going to fire the crap out of it, and scream things while doing it like "TAKE THAT FOKKERS" and "TELL STALIN ABOUT THAT".

    Anyways, I'm going to stop here, and call this "Part 1".
     

    Thor

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    So...you didn't take it home? :dunno: Grenade simulators? Nuclear weapons simulators? You just left that stuff behind? :)

    :shady:

    We'd come to the end of a tank gunnery table and have a LOT of ammo left over. The final targets blowed up real good...and burned.
     

    Sigblaster

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    So...you didn't take it home? :dunno: Grenade simulators? Nuclear weapons simulators? You just left that stuff behind? :)

    :shady:

    We'd come to the end of a tank gunnery table and have a LOT of ammo left over. The final targets blowed up real good...and burned.

    I NEVER took anything home. When the turn-in requirement for smoke grenade pull pins was 80%, and I recieved 100% turn in, I never held any back for future use. That purple stain on the lawn in my Mom's backyard was from my daughter spilling her Kool Aid.
     

    actaeon277

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    "Military Training" wildly varies.
    That's why I don't put much store in the claim.
    I was Navy.
    Brothers in the Army and Marines.
    Dad in the Coast Guard.
    Grandfather in the Army.
    Uncles also in Navy and Army.
    So, I've talked to a "few".
    I also know quite a few non-family vets.

    Some, are experts.
    And some, are "experts".
     

    Sigblaster

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    Part 2.

    Live ammo is a whole different situation. They want most of that brass and stuff back. If you ever wondered why you had to police up your brass on a live fire range, that's why. Sure, you can sneak a few rounds off, but really, if we don't make weight at turn-in, there's some 'splaining to do.

    When it's "No live turn-in" on a live-fire range, and it's the end of the day, we don't have fun blasting away at the countryside. We turn an M16 sideways over an ammo can, and stuff magazines into it and dump the expended cases straight into the ammo can. Just waste. No fun, but no live turn-in, so we get to waste ammo again next year.

    M60 range? No, we didn't do that. This is a real MG. I'm going to shoot it (hey I'm the HMFIC on this range), and you're going to hold an ammo can next to it and catch the crap it vomits out. Ok, I give a few turns to the range detail, but it's pretty much me.

    Now, this all sounds really good, right? Like, I'm the NCOIC on the range, and I get to pick and choose how we're going to expend all the ammo. Load magazines, juniors, and I'm going to burn rounds through M16s, and M3s, and M60s, and captured AKs, and maybe let you have some fun with that stuff too. Not so bad...

    Until you're the NCOIC on a hand grenade range. And at the end of the day, after every unit has run through the range and no one else is coming, you have 36 live hand grenades. No live turn-in. 100% pull ring turn-in. You don't really want to find a foxhole to bury these things in anyway. Not that stupid.

    So you and some random lieutanant are trying to close the range, and you have 36 hand grenades to expend. Sounds like fun, right? Wrong. LT pusses out after about 10, and you have to chuck like 26 more so you can go home. You ever chuck 26 grenades in about an hour so you get get home to dinner? I aint going to lie, the last few, I pulled a couple pins at a time to be rid of them. My arm was tired, and I was getting less distance with every throw. I was snuggled up to the wall of the concrete barrier like it was my wife's *******.

    This is the kinda crap I talk to my friends about, and why I don't need to lie and claim to be a hero, and why just being an average government issue Soldier, 1 each, OD Green doesn't mean you don't have some really good slices of life.
     

    actaeon277

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    Submariners are pretty lucky. No need to police the brass.
    When you're on the surface and get to shoot, the brass is consigned to the sea.
    :)
     

    Nazgul

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    We NEVER kept anything back in the Marines....

    Well, there was that time I drew duty early on a Saturday in our barracks. All is quiet until I hear a door shut quickly and laughing. Then the grenade simulator goes off under someone's bunk.

    Yeah, the smoldering mattress was put out then buried in the stack of new ones in the supply shack............

    Don
     

    Nazgul

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    In MARDET on a carrier coming back from a 6 month deployment, they had to turn over the small arms ammo we had when we returned. We shot as much as we could over 3 days, then they opened it up to anyone not on duty that wanted to have some fun. M14, M16, shotgun, and 45 auto. One Marine supervising per Sailor, did my shift as RSO. That was nerve wracking.

    The SGT/Maj and I shot all the M79 ammo we had, man it was a chore. Fun for the first 50 rounds.....

    Don
     

    STEEL CORE

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    I spent twenty-one years in the US Army, oh what stories I could tell. Units swap, beg, borrow, steel, scrounge ammunition.
    Burry some, yes.
    Dump some in a lake, yes.
    Fire it all up, yes.
    Pick it all up,?
    Well in combat no, training depends upon where your at.
    In the field, no, on a MOUT course yes.
    It was what it was.
     

    drillsgt

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    I agree with the gist of the OP's post. Every time at the end of the FY the money has to get spent for no reason and this is active or reserve units. This kind of thing isn't confined to the military either, i've seen it in other occupational settings. With ammunition, at least in the basic training world, there's no problem turning it back in after the range if you haven't used it, the ammunition draws are preplanned based on the range and typical personnel count. The only problem is if a can has been opened then it's easier to shoot it up. I remember one time we had a new DS we sent out on ammo detail he thought he was being helpful at the SAW/240 range and had all the ammo broke down into belts by the time we got there. It was way more ammo then we needed so that turned into a long day lol. The whole ammunition situation has changed a bit and got more ridiculous. I too remember the days of 'burying' blanks etc but anymore even with blanks you have to meet weight at turn-in. Many times after an FTX I have had to take trainees back out to our FTX sites to gather more brass because we were short. Smoke grenades are annoying too and that at least at Sill you needed pins and spoons accounted for.
     

    Winamac

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    I was with 4th ID at Fort Carson back in the early 80's. Down range was literally littered with belts of M60 and 50 cal blanks just lying in ditches along the roads along with blanks 5.56. Once issued if CAUGHT tossing it by the 1st Shirt. Article15. No one wanted to have to scrub the heavy carbon out of their weapon that would result from firing blanks. One thing the shirt would do to burn up blanks before we left the bivouac site. Is hold a formation and pick a few guys with M60's and M16's and he had a pile of blanks and stood there and made these guys have what we called " a mad minute" and shoot it all up. You always hated to be picked to burn up blanks. Those poor saps would be the last ones cleared from the armory back at garrison. Man hard t believe that has been 38 years ago.
     

    ECS686

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    I can only comment on the USAF and ANG side. Blanks nobody cared. Live ammo for quals everything was accounted for. We always had extra for those re shoots and as an instructor we had a proficiency allotment however there was a matrix Say we were turning in 20,000 rounds of expended brass. The matrix had what say 20,000 rounds of spent 5.56 or whatever weighed and we had to be within 80% or more of that weight.

    I had more free ammo for proficiency with civilian agencies than any Military time. The one exception was in the late 1980's (differwnt mentality) I was on a squadron oistol team and at the time the USAF was transitioning to 9mm from 38 special Model 15s Our CC supplied us with 38 dor matches as they were PPC thpe and several used our model 15s or personal S&W 66, 685s in the revolver division and M9s in auto. That was onky about a 2 year window Differwnt CC and different priorities.

    Doubt that happens these days
     
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    abeguzmanmarine

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    I hated those weeks where we had to burn up the excess. We would sometimes put so many rounds down range that it was no longer fun, it was exhausting. Your rifle was so so dirty that it took insanely too long to clean. Some rifles just plain quit working after that week. And then policing brass for hours after it. I don't miss it.

    Now much older, it frustrates me even more. The waste just so you don't lose any next year. It is truly a fine example of Gov waste and fraud. Military or not, it serves no purpose, just wasting money like so many other things the Gov does.
     

    Brad69

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    Brad’s rules for ammo handling and range operations!

    1. Keep blanks and live ammo physically separated.

    2. Know exactly what you have drawn from the ASP down to the round.

    3. Do not open cans, boxes, crates until needed it makes ammo easier to turn in if not needed.

    4. Find and keep a cache of (extra) brass in case of a shortage.

    5. Ensure ammo point is set up and functional before going “hot”.

    6. The Ammo NCO needs to be smart dude, able to tell you how many rounds are on the line, at the ammo point, how many fired.

    7. If your a Platoon Sergeant make one of your Squad Leaders the NCOIC it’s a good justification for a NCOER bullet.

    8. Always have constructive concurrent training resourced and conducted never have soldiers just sitting around.

    9. No matter what range have marksmanship reinforcement training going on.

    10. Make sure to stay on the good side of range control.
     
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    I was with 4th ID at Fort Carson back in the early 80's. Down range was literally littered with belts of M60 and 50 cal blanks just lying in ditches along the roads along with blanks 5.56. Once issued if CAUGHT tossing it by the 1st Shirt. Article15. No one wanted to have to scrub the heavy carbon out of their weapon that would result from firing blanks. One thing the shirt would do to burn up blanks before we left the bivouac site. Is hold a formation and pick a few guys with M60's and M16's and he had a pile of blanks and stood there and made these guys have what we called " a mad minute" and shoot it all up. You always hated to be picked to burn up blanks. Those poor saps would be the last ones cleared from the armory back at garrison. Man hard t believe that has been 38 years ago.


    I think about any CONUS station was like that. Saw whole belts of blanks laying all over the place at Stewart, Knox, and Irwin. Even found a few belts of live at Stewart and Irwin. And there was a reason I had a couple of 308 rifles at the time...
     

    rooster

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    Alright so I was in the army reserve in an ammo unit. Whenever we did training we shot every single round for the simple fact that most of time turn in( at the asp) was usually the next day. No one gets excited about posting guards over a pile of brass and boxes but if we have live ammo you had to post guards over that ammo.

    now having also ran an ASP I can tell you that there is a math calculation of how much % of brass has to be turned in that varies based on where you are. For instance one time at a stateside range 9mm had to be turned in 1 for 1 but at a training range in SWA ( southwest Asia) in the desert turn in % was somewhere around 70%. Now if for some reason the brass doesn’t add up the unit that did the shooting has two choices. 1. Go back and search for more brass or 2. Run a loss paper up the chain to get signed off on by an officer( O-4? I can’t remember).

    we had lots of signed loss papers turned in in SWA because a lot of the training was mounted patrol ranges with live ammo. Who in their right mind is gonna search a 3 mile convoy route to find all the links and brass with any degree of success in the desert. stateside it takes an act of God to get one signed it seems like.

    Yes the government has tons of ammo waste, it really depends on who is setting up the training and if they know what they are doing. I’ve done great training where we qualified and then did drills with the rest and other times We have loaded up hundreds of mags and handed them out for guys to go to the firing line, flip it on full auto and go HAM.
     

    Nazgul

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    Always hated firing blanks. Once I made NCO I never fired my rifle with one (Had an M14 with the fun switch). I traded them for fired brass. I was the one inspecting my troops firearms, not cleaning my own.

    Don
     
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    Hated blanks with a passion also. Good thing about being a M60A3 tanker, we used very few. No BFA for the coax, and the M85 was unreliable with live ammo, and a total POS with blanks so we usually didn't even try. "Yep, couldn't get that the damn thing to fire" was good enough an excuse. That all changed with the M1 transition.
     
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