Privileges vs. Rights.

[Limpy88]

A right is granted by society to its members in order for it to function; a privilege is granted by a group or individual as either a reward for, or conditional upon, good behavior

watched the channel 8 pieces on what the tsa said today. they said that flying is a privilege not a right. why is that. the goverment didnt invent flying. i have dealt with the "it is a privilege not a right" crap a bunch with it comes to transportation. the many place wont accept a state id. they want a drivers license. public transport doesnt even reach all of indianapolis let alone out liying countys.(its a $45cab ride from 8 seconds to my place) you need transportation to get a job. the goverment didnt invent the wheel, nor a automoblie. going to school is a privilege, yet you can get arrested for not going.the goverment didnt invent education(yet they control it). the goverment didnt event health and believe it to be a privilege. but yet they are forcing it on us. a cell phone or phone in general is a privilege. forget the fact that if you have no phone you need a psychical address for 911 to know where your are at. or the fact that the goverment has the right to listen in on our phone calls.

flying, driving, education are all needed to make this society function.

there are many other privileges that are really right that a free country should acknowledge but they are not. and they are trying to take away our right which many here have more thoughtful threads on here you could read.

(i guess you could call this a rant)

 

[88GT]

I'll bite.

First, your definition of a right is wrong. A right is inalienable to the nature of man, inherent in human-ness. Consider it an extension of "I think therefore I am:" "I am therefore I have rights." No society or government need exist to grant legitimacy to those rights.

Second, flying is a privilege inasmuch as you are riding on someone else's plane using someone else's skills and experience. You have a right to free movement within the boundaries of the U.S. but how you do that is limited by several things. Private ownership of the vehicles makes movement on those vehicles a privilege.

Your right exists only in your freedom to choose. The privilege is in what you can afford.

 

[Bondhead88]

A right is granted by society to its members in order for it to function; a privilege is granted by a group or individual as either a reward for, or conditional upon, good behavior

watched the channel 8 pieces on what the tsa said today. they said that flying is a privilege not a right. why is that. the goverment didnt invent flying. i have dealt with the "it is a privilege not a right" crap a bunch with it comes to transportation. the many place wont accept a state id. they want a drivers license. public transport doesnt even reach all of indianapolis let alone out liying countys.(its a $45cab ride from 8 seconds to my place) you need transportation to get a job. the goverment didnt invent the wheel, nor a automoblie. going to school is a privilege, yet you can get arrested for not going.the goverment didnt invent education(yet they control it). the goverment didnt event health and believe it to be a privilege. but yet they are forcing it on us. a cell phone or phone in general is a privilege. forget the fact that if you have no phone you need a psychical address for 911 to know where your are at. or the fact that the goverment has the right to listen in on our phone calls.

flying, driving, education are all needed to make this society function.

there are many other privileges that are really right that a free country should acknowledge but they are not. and they are trying to take away our right which many here have more thoughtful threads on here you could read.

(i guess you could call this a rant)

Rights are granted from God not men.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...The Declaration of Independence

 

[Bill of Rights]

A right is granted by society to its members in order for it to function; a privilege is granted by a group or individual as either a reward for, or conditional upon, good behavior

watched the channel 8 pieces on what the tsa said today. they said that flying is a privilege not a right. why is that. the goverment didnt invent flying. i have dealt with the "it is a privilege not a right" crap a bunch with it comes to transportation. the many place wont accept a state id. they want a drivers license. public transport doesnt even reach all of indianapolis let alone out liying countys.(its a $45cab ride from 8 seconds to my place) you need transportation to get a job. the goverment didnt invent the wheel, nor a automoblie. going to school is a privilege, yet you can get arrested for not going.the goverment didnt invent education(yet they control it). the goverment didnt event health and believe it to be a privilege. but yet they are forcing it on us. a cell phone or phone in general is a privilege. forget the fact that if you have no phone you need a psychical address for 911 to know where your are at. or the fact that the goverment has the right to listen in on our phone calls.

flying, driving, education are all needed to make this society function.

there are many other privileges that are really right that a free country should acknowledge but they are not. and they are trying to take away our right which many here have more thoughtful threads on here you could read.

(i guess you could call this a rant)

Your right exists only in your freedom to choose. The privilege is in what you can afford.

This. ^^ Best quote of the thread so far.

Rights are part of our very being and exist regardless of any government or lack thereof.

Flying, if you own the plane and the land from which you take off and on which you land, is a right. (although a right contingent upon a privilege; land ownership and plane ownership are not rights.) You need not worry about TSA screening if you own your own plane and use that to go from place to place, and if you take off and land from a place other than an airport. All of the major commercial air carriers, however, have made as a condition of passage that you not only purchase a ticket and use it to obtain a boarding pass, but that your identity be confirmed and your person and belongings searched prior to you being permitted on their planes.

Private businesses have the right to choose what form of ID they are willing to accept. If you disagree with their policies, you have the ultimate authority to protest: take your business elsewhere. You could also make an appeal to the business owner to change his/her policies if you would prefer to continue patronizing their establishment. Government did not invent motorized transportation, but the federal, state, and local governments built and maintain the roads on which you travel.

You are mistaken about government control of education. Parents may either educate their children themselves or make arrangements for that education to be delivered outside of a government-owned, operated, and regulated building; they're called "homeschool co-ops" and usually result from several parents getting together and making up lesson plans, spending time with their children, and in general taking back the responsibility of educating their children with the information they need to function in our world, unhampered by a government's ideas of how that information needs to be presented.

Government does not, apparently, believe healthcare to be a privilege but a right; never mind that the people providing that healthcare should have a right to decide to whom and for what compensation they provide it, free of governmental strictures other than negligence or intentional malpractice.

Yes, telephone service is a privilege, and for that matter, so is a physical address of residence; If you can't pay for them, having them is a privilege granted you by whoever is doing so, since telephone communication is provided by some corporate entity. If you want to avoid that, you have the ability to communicate in other ways that do not involve that technology. You want to have something about which to rant, explain to me why the government may control the public airwaves? If I build or buy, for example, an amateur radio transciever (HAM radio), why must I pay for a license and operate within a strict set of frequencies, albeit frequencies administered by volunteers within the industry? Why have they the power (not right; governments do not have rights, they have powers) to dictate what I'm allowed to say and in what format I may say it, and for that matter, how often I'm required to identify myself by using a "call sign" I had to pay them to receive? That they have the power to listen to those conversations is a function of the fact that anyone with a radio may do so by the very nature of radio wave propagation, but then, why must the transmissions not be encoded or otherwise obscured? (although I suppose that as long as the words used were clear, plain language, a code could be developed between the parties to the conversation to obscure the actual meaning; it would likely end up sounding like pass-phrases from a bad spy novel, though, or the movie, "Red Dawn": "John has a long mustache." "The chair is against the wall."

As for your rant...rant on. The more people that wake up and realize the things you've begun thinking about here, the more likely we will have some ability to take our country back peacefully, at the soapbox and the ballot box.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

This. ^^ Best quote of the thread so far.

Rights are part of our very being and exist regardless of any government or lack thereof.

Flying, if you own the plane and the land from which you take off and on which you land, is a right. (although a right contingent upon a privilege; land ownership and plane ownership are not rights.) You need not worry about TSA screening if you own your own plane and use that to go from place to place, and if you take off and land from a place other than an airport. All of the major commercial air carriers, however, have made as a condition of passage that you not only purchase a ticket and use it to obtain a boarding pass, but that your identity be confirmed and your person and belongings searched prior to you being permitted on their planes.

Private businesses have the right to choose what form of ID they are willing to accept. If you disagree with their policies, you have the ultimate authority to protest: take your business elsewhere. You could also make an appeal to the business owner to change his/her policies if you would prefer to continue patronizing their establishment. Government did not invent motorized transportation, but the federal, state, and local governments built and maintain the roads on which you travel.

You are mistaken about government control of education. Parents may either educate their children themselves or make arrangements for that education to be delivered outside of a government-owned, operated, and regulated building; they're called "homeschool co-ops" and usually result from several parents getting together and making up lesson plans, spending time with their children, and in general taking back the responsibility of educating their children with the information they need to function in our world, unhampered by a government's ideas of how that information needs to be presented.

Government does not, apparently, believe healthcare to be a privilege but a right; never mind that the people providing that healthcare should have a right to decide to whom and for what compensation they provide it, free of governmental strictures other than negligence or intentional malpractice.

Yes, telephone service is a privilege, and for that matter, so is a physical address of residence; If you can't pay for them, having them is a privilege granted you by whoever is doing so, since telephone communication is provided by some corporate entity. If you want to avoid that, you have the ability to communicate in other ways that do not involve that technology. You want to have something about which to rant, explain to me why the government may control the public airwaves? If I build or buy, for example, an amateur radio transciever (HAM radio), why must I pay for a license and operate within a strict set of frequencies, albeit frequencies administered by volunteers within the industry? Why have they the power (not right; governments do not have rights, they have powers) to dictate what I'm allowed to say and in what format I may say it, and for that matter, how often I'm required to identify myself by using a "call sign" I had to pay them to receive? That they have the power to listen to those conversations is a function of the fact that anyone with a radio may do so by the very nature of radio wave propagation, but then, why must the transmissions not be encoded or otherwise obscured? (although I suppose that as long as the words used were clear, plain language, a code could be developed between the parties to the conversation to obscure the actual meaning; it would likely end up sounding like pass-phrases from a bad spy novel, though, or the movie, "Red Dawn": "John has a long mustache." "The chair is against the wall."

As for your rant...rant on. The more people that wake up and realize the things you've begun thinking about here, the more likely we will have some ability to take our country back peacefully, at the soapbox and the ballot box.

Blessings,
Bill

Flying is a right if you're a bird or a bat. Even if you own the plane and the ground that you take off and land on, you don't own the airspace. The people of the United States do. Just like the people of the United States own the road system. You requrie a license to use the roads administered by various levels of government. The same exists for flying. You require a pilot's license. Proof you are insured. Proof of medical fitness to fly, Proof your plane is fit to fly. If you don't have these things, you have to fly with someone who does.

Radio communications is analogous to flying. The people of the United States own the airwaves. Certain frequencies are reserved for certain types of devices. Without standards and restrictions in place devices like the television and cell phone would be impossible to build or use. Without protected spectrums who would build a radio business of any type? It would be an unmanagable and unworkable system.

I'm not a ham operator, but I would think if I had invested a ton of money for equipment I wouldn't want somone just going out and buying a radio and trampling on my comm. There are free ranging spectrum available for general use by people who don't know or wish to learn proper HAM etiquitte. Why is separate but equal in this case somehow infringing? I haven't put great thought into it but on the surface it seems practical and reasonable to restrict certain radio frequencies to specific use.

 

[rambone]

Flying is a right if you're a bird or a bat. Even if you own the plane and the ground that you take off and land on, you don't own the airspace. The people of the United States do. Just like the people of the United States own the road system. You requrie a license to use the roads administered by various levels of government. The same exists for flying. You require a pilot's license. Proof you are insured. Proof of medical fitness to fly, Proof your plane is fit to fly. If you don't have these things, you have to fly with someone who does.</p>

People must mean Federal Government. And no, I don't think the Government should have any delusions that they own the air we breathe.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

People must mean Federal Government. And no, I don't think the Government should have any delusions that they own the air we breathe.

No, it means exactly what I said. It is owned by the people and administered by various levels of government.

 

[rambone]

No, it means exactly what I said. It is owned by the people and administered by various levels of government.

If I own a 10,000 acre farm, and I want to cropdust my land, I should be able to without being taxed by The Man. It is my right.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

If I own a 10,000 acre farm, and I want to cropdust my land, I should be able to without being taxed by The Man. It is my right.

Sometimes it's real hard to talk to you. I really don't know how you come up with stuff, and the constant shifting of premise makes it hard to address one. I didn't say anything about being taxed by the Man, the government owning the air you breath, or anything of the like.

I said that the people own the airspace. Do you want an unqualified pilot with a bad heart flying a junk plane over your house where they can hit the wrong button, have a heart attack, or have some bit fall off that they duct taped on cause them to spiril into your house, destroying it and killing everyone inside? I don't. I'll cede control over airspace to other people to set reasonable restrictions to further minimize the risk that could happen. That seems like a prudent course to me.

I'll concede that you flying over your own property may fit into a different category, but only to the extent that you don't leave the confines of your property, can't interfere with right of ways, other aircraft, etc.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

Rights are granted from God not men.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...The Declaration of Independence

Natural rights are granted [STRIKE]from God[/STRIKE] due to our existence as human beings, not from men.

My additions are in RED

My personal belief is compatible with what you wrote, but what you wrote leaves it open to religious interpretations I'd rather not entertain.

 

[rambone]

Sometimes it's real hard to talk to you. I really don't know how you come up with stuff, and the constant shifting of premise makes it hard to address one. I didn't say anything about being taxed by the Man, the government owning the air you breath, or anything of the like.

I said that the people own the airspace. Do you want an unqualified pilot with a bad heart flying a junk plane over your house where they can hit the wrong button, have a heart attack, or have some bit fall off that they duct taped on cause them to spiril into your house, destroying it and killing everyone inside? I don't. I'll cede control over airspace to other people to set reasonable restrictions to further minimize the risk that could happen. That seems like a prudent course to me.

I'll concede that you flying over your own property may fit into a different category, but only to the extent that you don't leave the confines of your property, can't interfere with right of ways, other aircraft, etc.

I'm just giving an example to back up BOR's statement that said you have a right to fly a machine that you own. For added impact I added that it would be over the pilot's own property. How can the people deny you from flying over your own space? What gives them the right? Their false claim of ownership of the air? Their fear of the unknown?

Regarding the tax issue, if you advocate a system that demands government licensing, government registry, government vehicle inspections, a doctor's permission slip, mandated insurance, etc., then you have all sorts of taxes imposed on flying.

I'll cede control {...} to other people to set reasonable restrictions to further minimize the risk that could happen.

This is the core of the argument that brings us to disagree. You think the government can be used for good. I think it is a necessary evil. There is a big difference.

Do you advocate that people with a bad heart be stripped of their driving rights as well? Otherwise he could suddenly careen through a daycare center and possibly an animal shelter. How much control will be necessary to achieve the level of safety you desire? People with government licenses don't impress me.

 

[Garb]

I said that the people own the [strike]airspace[/strike] sidewalk. Do you want an [strike]unqualified pilot[/strike] idiot with a [strike]bad heart[/strike] itchy trigger finger [strike]flying a junk plane[/strike] carrying a handgun [strike]over [/strike] by your house where they can hit the wrong button, have a heart attack, or have some bit fall off that they duct taped on cause them to [strike]spiril[/strike] shoot into your house, destroying it and killing everyone inside? I don't. I'll cede control over [strike]airspace[/strike] my guns to other people to set reasonable restrictions to further minimize the risk that could happen. That seems like a prudent course to me.

This is the same argument the government uses to control every other aspect of our lives.

 

[Bondhead88]

"going to school is a privilege, yet you can get arrested for not going.the goverment didnt invent education(yet they control it)."

We never allowed the government to control our children's education. This is a parents right and responsibility.

We have both private schooled and home schooled and no we are not rich nor are we wealthy we just decided that there were things we were willing to do without to provide this for our two kids.

Private schooling never made them snobs nor did homeschooling interfere with their social skills. It is a major myth that social skills can only be or even best developed in a school atmosphere.

Home schooling also never hurt the level of our children's education. studies continue to show that home schooled children excel in their education and people comment on how well behaved our kids are.

It has also not hurt our daughters college education she did excellent on her ACT and is now in her second year where she is taking elementary education and will graduate with a BSc.

Our son is in grade 8 and back in private school after being home schooled for 2 years. His first report card came back in and his overall average in 92.5%. he is also studying Mandarin and takes trumpet lessons.

This has also not taking the teen out of them my son rocks at HALO and other XBOX games and my daughter just finished a two month run in a play where she had a good speaking part!

 

[Garb]

"going to school is a privilege, yet you can get arrested for not going.the goverment didnt invent education(yet they control it)."

We never allowed the government to control our children's education. This is a parents right and responsibility.

We have both private schooled and home schooled and no we are not rich nor are we wealthy we just decided that there were things we were willing to do without to provide this for our two kids.

Private schooling never made them snobs nor did homeschooling interfere with their social skills. It is a major myth that social skills can only be or even best developed in a school atmosphere.

Home schooling also never hurt the level of our children's education. studies continue to show that home schooled children excel in their education and people comment on how well behaved our kids are.

It has also not hurt our daughters college education she did excellent on her ACT and is now in her second year where she is taking elementary education and will graduate with a BSc.

Our son is in grade 8 and back in private school after being home schooled for 2 years. His first report card came back in and his overall average in 92.5%. he is also studying Mandarin and takes trumpet lessons.

This has also not taking the teen out of them my son rocks at HALO and other XBOX games and my daughter just finished a two month run in a play where she had a good speaking part!

I was home schooled from the second to eighth grade, and I can tell you there is a HUGE outcry over it. No, you can't get arrested for it, but if the right people find out, you'll go through hell to keep your kid home schooled.

 

[Bondhead88]

I was home schooled from the second to eighth grade, and I can tell you there is a HUGE outcry over it. No, you can't get arrested for it, but if the right people find out, you'll go through hell to keep your kid home schooled.

Yes depending what state you are in there can be issues. Some States are more open than others.

 

[Garb]

Yes depending what state you are in there can be issues. Some States are more open than others.

We lived in town, and I liked to go outside and get my ball on. My mom wouldn't let me until school let out for fear that she would get a visit from the Men in Black.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I'm just giving an example to back up BOR's statement that said you have a right to fly a machine that you own. For added impact I added that it would be over the pilot's own property. How can the people deny you from flying over your own space? What gives them the right? Their false claim of ownership of the air? Their fear of the unknown?

Regarding the tax issue, if you advocate a system that demands government licensing, government registry, government vehicle inspections, a doctor's permission slip, mandated insurance, etc., then you have all sorts of taxes imposed on flying.

This is the core of the argument that brings us to disagree. You think the government can be used for good. I think it is a necessary evil. There is a big difference.

Do you advocate that people with a bad heart be stripped of their driving rights as well? Otherwise he could suddenly careen through a daycare center and possibly an animal shelter. How much control will be necessary to achieve the level of safety you desire? People with government licenses don't impress me.

I'm not going to address the strawmen. Suffice it to say you have no idea what I think about government.

I believe in the Constitution. The one that starts out "We the people of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. ..."

Not the perfect union. Not a perfect union. A more perfect union.

I see a role for government. Much smaller than exists today. I don't think the military that protects us is evil. I don't think the people that plot and plan a road system that effeciently gets potatoes from Idaho to Indiana and corn from Indiana to New York so that commerce can be conducted are evil. I think it's unfortunate that you do.

I see a role for people to study what level of polution is sustainable and insuring that the chemical plant down the street doesn't pump more than that into the river system. Do they always do it right? No, they never do it right. But the answer is to fix what's broken. Not to say it's not a necessary function because you have to give up your freedom to pollute your neighbor's property.

This is the same argument the government uses to control every other aspect of our lives.

Whatever. You're equivocating. I'm not playing.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I'm just giving an example to back up BOR's statement that said you have a right to fly a machine that you own. For added impact I added that it would be over the pilot's own property. How can the people deny you from flying over your own space? What gives them the right? Their false claim of ownership of the air? Their fear of the unknown?
.

As a matter of fact, there is little regulation of airspace below 700'-1200' feet above ground level throughout the US. As long as you stay out of "Controlled Airspace", which is above those altitudes and outside of airport control areas (usually 5 statute miles) you need not have a license to fly, nor a radio to communicate. Helicopters are required to fly at a speed to avoid obstacles. I have personally seen an ultralight aircraft fly down the beach in Texas when I was hovering along the beach because the visibility was so bad I couldn't fly.

 

[rambone]

As a matter of fact, there is little regulation of airspace below 700'-1200' feet above ground level throughout the US. As long as you stay out of "Controlled Airspace", which is above those altitudes and outside of airport control areas (usually 5 statute miles) you need not have a license to fly, nor a radio to communicate.

I am relieved to hear that. Thankfully we aren't required to have a physical performed on us either before we fly. Those things are not examples of less government.

 

[maxmayhem]

It becomes a right some degree when the use taxpayers funds to fund it in my opinion. Maybe they should only let US citizens us it unless they are leaving the country....just a thought

A right is granted by society to its members in order for it to function; a privilege is granted by a group or individual as either a reward for, or conditional upon, good behavior

watched the channel 8 pieces on what the tsa said today. they said that flying is a privilege not a right. why is that. the goverment didnt invent flying. i have dealt with the "it is a privilege not a right" crap a bunch with it comes to transportation. the many place wont accept a state id. they want a drivers license. public transport doesnt even reach all of indianapolis let alone out liying countys.(its a $45cab ride from 8 seconds to my place) you need transportation to get a job. the goverment didnt invent the wheel, nor a automoblie. going to school is a privilege, yet you can get arrested for not going.the goverment didnt invent education(yet they control it). the goverment didnt event health and believe it to be a privilege. but yet they are forcing it on us. a cell phone or phone in general is a privilege. forget the fact that if you have no phone you need a psychical address for 911 to know where your are at. or the fact that the goverment has the right to listen in on our phone calls.

flying, driving, education are all needed to make this society function.

there are many other privileges that are really right that a free country should acknowledge but they are not. and they are trying to take away our right which many here have more thoughtful threads on here you could read.

(i guess you could call this a rant)