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Poll: Tariffs: A good idea?

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  1. #351
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoughMade View Post
    Something like $15 billion (with a "B") in foreign aid to 47 African nations last time I checked. On one side, $40 million is a drop in the bucket, so why not? On the other side, if we can't buy good vibes for $15 billion, why would we believe we can buy it for $40 million?
    I'm curious what constitutes the aid. I'm not arguing the numbers, just wondering how much of it is to prop up our preferred authoritarian in some of those nations.

    Moreover, that $40M is truly a drop in the bucket for the Chinese, yet they were able to make it happen.

    Depending on how you count, because China offers low or no-interest loans, with few strings attached for now, China's investment in Africa just about matches ours.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/08/31...od-for-africa/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a970f0f0dd21

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...rge-aid-africa

    In a competition, it isn't always about how much you spend - it is how you spend it. China's strategy involves spending money on concrete things (literally) and infrastructure. I'm not sure we've pursued the same strategy. Our seems to be more ephemeral.
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

  2. #352
    Expert SheepDog4Life's Avatar

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    Our we could spend much more (4.5x) than that helping them to survive and get bumpkus! Oh, wait, we did...

    http://www.publishwhatyoufund.org/wp...-Senegal-1.pdf

    In FY ‘16, the US spent $189m on aid to
    Senegal.10 Of that, $51.2m was on agriculture.
    Although it is the largest donor in the country,
    Senegal represents just 0.4% of overall US
    foreign assistance spending, making it the
    34th most funded country by the US.11
    Seen on Facebook: “Love trumping hate involves a lot more assault and arson than I thought it would”

    "I believe in a system of Love and Karma, but, to counterbalance that, if it fails, I'm buying an AK-47..." - Unidentified Californian on Fox News following Antifa protests fascist riots

  3. #353
    INGO Homebrewer JettaKnight's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    Life long military still working for the puzzle palace as a contractor, going on 40yrs now. You?
    Oh, I know that about you. That's kind of my point. I would absolutely trust what you had to say about the DoD; foreign policy and economics, not so much. In my limited dealing with Chinese manufacturers and travel there, I learned that I don't know nearly as much as I think I do about the Chinese, and neither do most Americans.


    On the way home I was thinking - "OK what would happen if we severely reduced our trade with China?" I mean, that's what you're proposing, correct?

    My thought is:
    1. Our economy would tank in every sector as the cost of raw material skyrockets.
    2. China would suffer, but would find other trading partners in emerging companies looking for cheap goods.
    3. Our current carrots and sticks we use with China would be feckless.
    4. Many of our trading partners would go away, because hey, who wants a mercurial, self interest at all cost trading partner?
    5. Chinese investment dries up, now we have to repay a big debt.
    6. China's military might and influence grows, whereas the US shrivels.


    How do you recover from that?

    Where am I wrong in my thought process?
    Quote Originally Posted by printcraft View Post
    I have received and I have given. Usually at different times. But sometime at the same time.

  4. #354
    Grandmaster hoosierdoc's Avatar

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    No home for you!

    https://hotair.com/archives/2018/12/...-extradite-us/

    interesting that Canada helped us enforce Iran sanctions and arrested a prominent Chinese national for us
    Amazing Grace, how sweet was her sound.

    Love them as if you'll lose them.

  5. #355
    Grandmaster Thor's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierdoc View Post
    No home for you!

    https://hotair.com/archives/2018/12/...-extradite-us/

    interesting that Canada helped us enforce Iran sanctions and arrested a prominent Chinese national for us
    The arrest is to attempt to compel Huawei to appear in court and answer for dealing with Iran. All profitable Chinese companies are tied to the Communist Party and/or the People's Liberation Army so by extension this a challenge to the ChiComs as a whole. I would expect them to retaliate in kind. Also expect any trade discussions to end.
    Thor himself has spoken, mere mortals must make it so. - bradmedic04

  6. #356
    Grandmaster Thor's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by JettaKnight View Post
    Oh, I know that about you. That's kind of my point. I would absolutely trust what you had to say about the DoD; foreign policy and economics, not so much. In my limited dealing with Chinese manufacturers and travel there, I learned that I don't know nearly as much as I think I do about the Chinese, and neither do most Americans.

    So, you apparently have some direct immediate profit motive here. If you do business with the ChiComs and travel to ChiComland I may not have much respect for your opinions on ChiCom policy.

    On the way home I was thinking - "OK what would happen if we severely reduced our trade with China?" I mean, that's what you're proposing, correct?

    Correct.

    My thought is:
    1. Our economy would tank in every sector as the cost of raw material skyrockets. - Speculation, some companies would obviously be impacted...like those doing business with the ChiComs.
    2. China would suffer, but would find other trading partners in emerging companies looking for cheap goods. - They would suffer way more than we would, no one could replace our market.
    3. Our current carrots and sticks we use with China would be feckless. - Like the ChiComs care what we think.
    4. Many of our trading partners would go away, because hey, who wants a mercurial, self interest at all cost trading partner? - That's silly. If the world sees that what we used to do with the ChiComs we're now going to do with them they'll come running to provide those products and services.
    5. Chinese investment dries up, now we have to repay a big debt. - As I said before, it was a mistake to let an ENEMY become a major player in our economy, doing more of the same is bad business.
    6. China's military might and influence grows, whereas the US shrivels. - Equally silly. As it stands now we are funding their military and dreams of world domination.
    .
    Thor himself has spoken, mere mortals must make it so. - bradmedic04

  7. #357
    INGO Homebrewer JettaKnight's Avatar

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    I listened to Bolton on NPR's ME today. I am really glad that the Trump adm. is taking IP infringement seriously. I actually wish the EU would, but they're too busy fining Google and determining what can be called Cheddar cheese.
    Quote Originally Posted by printcraft View Post
    I have received and I have given. Usually at different times. But sometime at the same time.

  8. #358
    Master AmmoManAaron's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by JettaKnight View Post
    On the way home I was thinking - "OK what would happen if we severely reduced our trade with China?" I mean, that's what you're proposing, correct?

    My thought is:
    1. Our economy would tank in every sector as the cost of raw material skyrockets.
    2. China would suffer, but would find other trading partners in emerging companies looking for cheap goods.
    3. Our current carrots and sticks we use with China would be feckless.
    4. Many of our trading partners would go away, because hey, who wants a mercurial, self interest at all cost trading partner?
    5. Chinese investment dries up, now we have to repay a big debt.
    6. China's military might and influence grows, whereas the US shrivels.


    How do you recover from that?

    Where am I wrong in my thought process?
    The Chinese are not as powerful as you are portraying them and we are winning this trade/tariff tiff. I think everyone discussing or reading along in this thread needs to read this article.

    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/marc...-mark-entirely

    Key points and takeaways:
    The U.S. economy is booming, while China has just posted its weakest growth in nearly a decade.
    The Chinese Communist Party controls the economy through state ownership and massive subsidies in dozens of sectors where U.S. goods and services can't compete fairly.
    Anything we tariff from China can be had elsewhere or made here, the same cannot be said for soybeans and other foodstuffs (which the Chinese just learned the hard way).

    My conclusion: The US will win because we control the food supply and we have idle industrial capacity that can take up the slack from anything that gets tariffed. Manufacturing is easier to expand than the food supply. Manufacturing here is stimulative for the economy even if it leads to marginally more expensive products because the money is being circulated in our economy rather than drained from it.
    "2016: The year that hackers became more trusted than government or reporters."

  9. #359
    Grandmaster Thor's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmmoManAaron View Post
    The Chinese are not as powerful as you are portraying them and we are winning this trade/tariff tiff.
    Key points and takeaways:
    The U.S. economy is booming, while China has just posted its weakest growth in nearly a decade.
    The Chinese Communist Party controls the economy through state ownership and massive subsidies in dozens of sectors where U.S. goods and services can't compete fairly.
    Anything we tariff from China can be had elsewhere or made here, the same cannot be said for soybeans and other foodstuffs (which the Chinese just learned the hard way).

    My conclusion: The US will win because we control the food supply and we have idle industrial capacity that can take up the slack from anything that gets tariffed. Manufacturing is easier to expand than the food supply. Manufacturing here is stimulative for the economy even if it leads to marginally more expensive products because the money is being circulated in our economy rather than drained from it.
    Thor himself has spoken, mere mortals must make it so. - bradmedic04

  10. #360
    Grandmaster BugI02's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by JettaKnight View Post
    Oh, I know that about you. That's kind of my point. I would absolutely trust what you had to say about the DoD; foreign policy and economics, not so much. In my limited dealing with Chinese manufacturers and travel there, I learned that I don't know nearly as much as I think I do about the Chinese, and neither do most Americans.


    On the way home I was thinking - "OK what would happen if we severely reduced our trade with China?" I mean, that's what you're proposing, correct?

    My thought is:
    1. Our economy would tank in every sector as the cost of raw material skyrockets.
    2. China would suffer, but would find other trading partners in emerging companies looking for cheap goods.
    3. Our current carrots and sticks we use with China would be feckless.
    4. Many of our trading partners would go away, because hey, who wants a mercurial, self interest at all cost trading partner?
    5. Chinese investment dries up, now we have to repay a big debt.
    6. China's military might and influence grows, whereas the US shrivels.


    How do you recover from that?

    Where am I wrong in my thought process?
    Following is a list of the top twenty consumer markets from the wiki (sorted by their Household final consumption expenditure (HFCE) which represents consumer spending in nominal terms)

    ConsumerMkts.jpg

    Not seeing too many potential friends of the ChiComs. The EU is an aggregate, but you need all of it plus all of Japan and India to equal what they lose if the US stops doing business with them. We give them the same choice we give people on doing business with Iran - they can do business with the US or China but not both

    It's the age-old problem of everybody is happy with the status quo because they are making out like bandits, parasites sucking on the much stronger US economy. It has to stop sometime, if nothing else then by the death of the host. The way the ChiComs prefer to do business, I don't see other advanced countries jumping at the chance to be the chumps we are for them

    The hardest part would be countering the quislings in our own government and the people who would sell their birthright for a slightly cheaper mess-o-iPottage


    My dreams they aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be

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