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  1. #161
    KLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugI02 View Post
    If you are going with the delusion that simply legalizing weed will end the problem of criminality/black market, please cite your evidence that the 21st amendment alone ended the power of the mob (rather than that they simply used their power and reach to maintain the cash flows by other extra-legal means). The cartels are not werewolves and legalization is not a silver bullet

    Every libertarian seems to think that legalization solves all problems, when in reality it doesn't even solve their own


    And all conservatives want to use the power of the government to impose their moral will on everyone else. Right?
    They shouldn't just drop a hellfire missile on your café experience...Rand Paul

  2. #162
    Grandmaster BugI02's Avatar

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    Well, since everyone who doesn't support chaos is obviously a statist, I'm sure 3 to 4% of the electorate probably think so
    You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you

  3. #163
    Sharpshooter indyartisan's Avatar

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    “If we are going to make plants illegal and pay government employees to try to eradicate them we should start with poison ivy and dandlelions”
    Heard on WIBC

  4. #164
    Grandmaster ATOMonkey's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by BugI02 View Post
    If you are going with the delusion that simply legalizing weed will end the problem of criminality/black market, please cite your evidence that the 21st amendment alone ended the power of the mob (rather than that they simply used their power and reach to maintain the cash flows by other extra-legal means). The cartels are not werewolves and legalization is not a silver bullet

    Every libertarian seems to think that legalization solves all problems, when in reality it doesn't even solve their own


    Without a doubt, the 21st amendment virtually eliminated moonshining as a profession. No, it didn't eliminate the mob, but it forced them to move to different revenue streams. Protection rackets, money laundering, murder for hire, and the sort.

    Also without a doubt, the sale of drugs funds criminal behavior. My goal is to eliminate as many streams of revenue as possible in order to shrink their influence. There is no eliminating crime, but we don't need to make it easy for criminals to fund their lifestyle either.

  5. #165
    Grandmaster ATOMonkey's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by indyartisan View Post
    “If we are going to make plants illegal and pay government employees to try to eradicate them we should start with poison ivy and dandlelions”
    Heard on WIBC
    When you make dandelions illegal, only criminals will have dandelions.

  6. #166
    Grandmaster jamil's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by BugI02 View Post
    If you are going with the delusion that simply legalizing weed will end the problem of criminality/black market, please cite your evidence that the 21st amendment alone ended the power of the mob (rather than that they simply used their power and reach to maintain the cash flows by other extra-legal means). The cartels are not werewolves and legalization is not a silver bullet

    Every libertarian seems to think that legalization solves all problems, when in reality it doesn't even solve their own


    Although you didn't say it right, I know what you mean. That legalizing weed ends the criminality/black market is a tautology. If it's legal, it's not criminality. If it's on the open market, there's no need for a black market. Both points are more nuanced though. Even legal things are regulated at least a little, and there is a small black market for unregulated goods, and therefore some criminality associated with it. But, the point is clearly made that it has to be illegal to have criminality. Less illegal = less criminality. Fat people are fat. Tautologies.

    But my main objection is that you're saying I'm saying more than I'm saying. I'm not saying it's a silver bullet. It's not a binary. And I'm not a libertarian. I'm libertarian-ish on some issues. You can't cluster me in with some ideological identify simply because I might agree with some group on some thing. I'm not a groupie of anything really.

    And the quoted post is a specific response to a comment. There is a lot more than I've written about what I think of this issue. I haven't said anywhere that I think legalization solves all problems. I think it solves *some* problems. And I'm not in favor of legalizing all drugs. Just *some* drugs. Just like I'm not okay with giving ordinary citizens the right to own and use nukes, I'm also not okay with some drugs, because I think some drugs can't be used in a way that doesn't harm others. I'm generally a live and let live advocate. But if people do things which can't help but harm others, I think it's fine to restrict that. MJ? Eh, that's just not in that category.
    -spreading the word to end the r-word is retarded
    -activism is retarded because, what if you’re full of ****?
    I'm certainly willing to talk about you if I can't talk to you. (teal is the citation)

  7. #167
    Grandmaster jamil's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by BugI02 View Post
    I think you have overstated the amount of thought going into some of these positions

    The feel I get is that many arguments devolve to the law is widely ignored and many people violate the law with apparently no lasting consequences, so basede on anecdotal evidence the law is bad/untenable

    You could say the same for speed limits. The question is whether that should encourage one to eliminate them altogether or just adjust them closer to reality. The choice seems to be between chaos and some semblance of order


    Is there a black market for speed limits? Is there organized crime built around a business model of peddling speeding? I don't think the two are similar enough in the right ways to make it all that relevant.
    -spreading the word to end the r-word is retarded
    -activism is retarded because, what if you’re full of ****?
    I'm certainly willing to talk about you if I can't talk to you. (teal is the citation)

  8. #168
    Grandmaster jamil's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by BugI02 View Post
    Well, since everyone who doesn't support chaos is obviously a statist, I'm sure 3 to 4% of the electorate probably think so
    Surely you get that this is hyperbolic. Libertarians aren't all anarchists though some are. They tend to use "harm" as the basis for law. People smoke MJ, and it's not harming me if people smoke it, as long as I don't have to pay for their lazy asses, at least the ones who are lazy asses.
    -spreading the word to end the r-word is retarded
    -activism is retarded because, what if you’re full of ****?
    I'm certainly willing to talk about you if I can't talk to you. (teal is the citation)

  9. #169
    Grandmaster BugI02's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamil View Post
    Is there a black market for speed limits? Is there organized crime built around a business model of peddling speeding? I don't think the two are similar enough in the right ways to make it all that relevant.
    Don't be deliberately obtuse. The poster was arguing that the law is widely flouted and using that as justification for repeal. The speed limit analogy is apt. Wasn't the Ferguson police department accused of using traffic enforcement as a rainmaking activity for the city? Wouldn't that constitute a black market activity vis a vis merely ensuring public safety (not saying the accusation is true, just referencing the idea of 'speed traps')
    You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you

  10. #170
    Grandmaster BugI02's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamil View Post
    Although you didn't say it right, I know what you mean. That legalizing weed ends the criminality/black market is a tautology. If it's legal, it's not criminality. If it's on the open market, there's no need for a black market. Both points are more nuanced though. Even legal things are regulated at least a little, and there is a small black market for unregulated goods, and therefore some criminality associated with it. But, the point is clearly made that it has to be illegal to have criminality. Less illegal = less criminality. Fat people are fat. Tautologies.

    But my main objection is that you're saying I'm saying more than I'm saying. I'm not saying it's a silver bullet. It's not a binary. And I'm not a libertarian. I'm libertarian-ish on some issues. You can't cluster me in with some ideological identify simply because I might agree with some group on some thing. I'm not a groupie of anything really.

    And the quoted post is a specific response to a comment. There is a lot more than I've written about what I think of this issue. I haven't said anywhere that I think legalization solves all problems. I think it solves *some* problems. And I'm not in favor of legalizing all drugs. Just *some* drugs. Just like I'm not okay with giving ordinary citizens the right to own and use nukes, I'm also not okay with some drugs, because I think some drugs can't be used in a way that doesn't harm others. I'm generally a live and let live advocate. But if people do things which can't help but harm others, I think it's fine to restrict that. MJ? Eh, that's just not in that category.

    IMO, this is also covered by the injunction against obtuseness. What is being implied is that legalizing weed will end the black market problem not just for than weed, that it will somehow drastically weaken the bad actors. This is manifestly not the case and is a specious reason for legalization. It might put your local dealer out of business but it will not seriously weaken the cartels which, like the mob, are involved in a broad array of unsavory activity

    You are free to consider it an aberration, but I consider anyone for whom the legalization of leaf is more important than a large number of real problems facing the country right now to be at least an honorary libertarian. I actually formed that opinion on INGO where the correlation of libertarian to those vociferously calling for legalization is virtually 1:1

    Obviously, as a statist (as all non-true believers are), legalizing does't even make my top 20 list of things we should spend our time and energy accomplishing

    You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you

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