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  1. #151
    Ark
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghuns View Post
    I agree for the most part.

    But I do think it a little more than sucks for the Kurds. How many times have we screwed them over? The Syrian Democratic Forces lost 11K people so Trump could brag about how HE defeated ISIS in world record time. The LEAST he coulda done, as the world's greatest dealmaker, was worked out a deal for our withdrawal. A deal where our supposed NATO ally doesn't swoop in an massacre those who did the heavy lifting in his war against ISIS.
    Being a stateless people sucks. I kinda hoped with ISIS setting the whole region on fire, the Kurds' general competency and togetherness would allow them to come out of it with a de facto state and a route to being recognized as one. Maybe it can still happen, maybe not, but it doesn't seem like something the US was ever going to impose on their neighbors through force of arms. Blame the French and the British for drawing back-asswards lines of conquest on a map a hundred years ago and jamming half a dozen warring groups into four countries.

  2. #152
    The BOFH GPIA7R's Avatar

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    Rand Paul's take

    Quote Originally Posted by Rand
    The Cheney/Graham neocon War Caucus wants to come back to DC and declare a war. My question for them is - who will you declare it on?

    Will it be our NATO allies the Turks? Will it be Assad? Will it be Islamic rebels? Which ones? They want to keep starting endless wars in conflicts that go back hundreds of years, but what they want makes no sense.

    I know this, Donald Trump is the first President in my lifetime to understand what is our national interest and what is not. He is stopping the endless wars and we will be stronger as a result. The Cheney/Graham Neocon War Caucus has cost us too much fighting endless wars.

  3. #153

  4. #154
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    Given that Turkey is a signatory to NATO, the other member countries are bound to come to their defense. Would Germany, France, and the like support kicking them out of NATO? I'd guess if they did it would have been done already.

    So what you face with a war, declared or not, on a NATO ally, is a potential European crisis where the other signatories are bound to come in to support the NATO. In such an event, is the rest of the organization more likely to support a regional partner that they do a lot of business with, or the United States? I'd like to think they'd sit out, at best, but who the hell knows? It's a screwed-up situation.

    Then there's the fact that we have two American bases (not sure if that includes dependents or not, but it's still a significant amount of equipment and personnel) behind what would become enemy lines in Turkey. They're secured Air Force bases, but I can't imagine they're hardened enough to stand up to an armored cavalry regiment.

    That said, Turkey's tank force is pretty pathetic, and every other time recently they've tried to advance into Kurdish territory they've gotten their asses handed to them because the Kurds have modern antitank weapons and Turks are riding around in mostly 50-year old tanks.

  5. #155
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    See, I figure that the NATO membership and US bases would be great leverage to convince Turkey to avoid this, if we really thought it was in US interests to do so. It doesn't appear (which doesn't mean it isn't happening) that we've tried any of that. The various gov'ts act like there's nothing we can do to influence this.

    I am deeply sympathetic to the Kurds. They've been pawns in bigger games since forever. At a human level, they probably don't deserve that.

    At the same time, it seems that there's a great deal we don't really know about this particular situation.

    If we've tried to use leverage and it didn't work, fine. Things go that way. That means we have really difficult decisions. (And it doesn't look like we've offered to help secure the safe zone Turkey wants, which we could then use to also protect the Kurds.)

    If we haven't tried that leverage, then shame on us. We'll find out in a few years (or news cycles).

    It really isn't that binary, but that's kinda where I'm at.
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

  6. #156
    KG1
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.Lex View Post
    See, I figure that the NATO membership and US bases would be great leverage to convince Turkey to avoid this, if we really thought it was in US interests to do so. It doesn't appear (which doesn't mean it isn't happening) that we've tried any of that. The various gov'ts act like there's nothing we can do to influence this.

    I am deeply sympathetic to the Kurds. They've been pawns in bigger games since forever. At a human level, they probably don't deserve that.

    At the same time, it seems that there's a great deal we don't really know about this particular situation.

    If we've tried to use leverage and it didn't work, fine. Things go that way. That means we have really difficult decisions. (And it doesn't look like we've offered to help secure the safe zone Turkey wants, which we could then use to also protect the Kurds.)

    If we haven't tried that leverage, then shame on us. We'll find out in a few years (or news cycles).

    It really isn't that binary, but that's kinda where I'm at.
    I guess things were in the works to secure a safe buffer zone but the Turks got impatient with the process and that’s when Erdogan informed Trump in their recent conversation that they were going ahead with thier own offensive to establish the buffer zone approximately 18mi inland across the border into Kurdish held Syrian territory by 300mi wide.

  7. #157
    Grandmaster DoggyDaddy's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.Lex View Post
    See, I figure that the NATO membership and US bases would be great leverage to convince Turkey to avoid this, if we really thought it was in US interests to do so. It doesn't appear (which doesn't mean it isn't happening) that we've tried any of that. The various gov'ts act like there's nothing we can do to influence this.

    I am deeply sympathetic to the Kurds. They've been pawns in bigger games since forever. At a human level, they probably don't deserve that.

    At the same time, it seems that there's a great deal we don't really know about this particular situation.

    If we've tried to use leverage and it didn't work, fine. Things go that way. That means we have really difficult decisions. (And it doesn't look like we've offered to help secure the safe zone Turkey wants, which we could then use to also protect the Kurds.)

    If we haven't tried that leverage, then shame on us. We'll find out in a few years (or news cycles).

    It really isn't that binary, but that's kinda where I'm at.
    It's always Kurds, Kurds, Kurds! What about the Whey?? Don't they deserve our sympathy too?

  8. #158
    Master JTScribe's Avatar

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  9. #159
    Ark
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.Lex View Post
    See, I figure that the NATO membership and US bases would be great leverage to convince Turkey to avoid this, if we really thought it was in US interests to do so. It doesn't appear (which doesn't mean it isn't happening) that we've tried any of that. The various gov'ts act like there's nothing we can do to influence this.
    All politics are local. Turkey doesn't care what people in the US or Europe think, they care that bombs keep going off and their soldiers keep getting killed by Kurdish terrorists.

    Imagine how receptive the US government and public would be to Europe or China trying to pressure us into not taking action against Mexican terrorists who cross the border and murder US servicepeople in ambush attacks.

    Sums up the shocking hypocrisy of people who have been vehemently anti-war for 15 years, but suddenly flipped to being frothing warmongers the instant Orange Man started giving them what they wanted.

  10. #160
    KLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTScribe View Post
    Given that Turkey is a signatory to NATO, the other member countries are bound to come to their defense. Would Germany, France, and the like support kicking them out of NATO? I'd guess if they did it would have been done already.

    So what you face with a war, declared or not, on a NATO ally, is a potential European crisis where the other signatories are bound to come in to support the NATO. In such an event, is the rest of the organization more likely to support a regional partner that they do a lot of business with, or the United States? I'd like to think they'd sit out, at best, but who the hell knows? It's a screwed-up situation.

    Then there's the fact that we have two American bases (not sure if that includes dependents or not, but it's still a significant amount of equipment and personnel) behind what would become enemy lines in Turkey. They're secured Air Force bases, but I can't imagine they're hardened enough to stand up to an armored cavalry regiment.

    That said, Turkey's tank force is pretty pathetic, and every other time recently they've tried to advance into Kurdish territory they've gotten their asses handed to them because the Kurds have modern antitank weapons and Turks are riding around in mostly 50-year old tanks.
    Isn't NATO a defensive pact? I would think that support would go to the defender, unless the case was made before hand that a war was just.

    They shouldn't just drop a hellfire missile on your café experience...Rand Paul

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