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  1. #1
    Shooter

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    Diminishing Conflict by Weakening the State

    More Politics Means More Conflict - Ryan McMaken - Mises Daily


    Yet another example of why we would do well to weaken state.

  2. #2
    ATM
    ATM is offline
    will argue for sammiches. ATM's Avatar

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    ...The real solution lies in greatly weakening, dismembering, and decentralizing the state (through secession, nullification, and the end of majority rule) to the point where the political winners cannot wield immense power over the losers.
    An excellent conclusion.


    www.reveresriders.org

    Say no to drugs. Say yes to bacon!

  3. #3
    Shooter

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATM View Post
    An excellent conclusion.
    I suspect Jefferson would agree.

  4. #4
    Grandmaster Kirk Freeman's Avatar

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    I suspect Jefferson would agree.
    Jefferson? The guy that was plotting to kill Muslims overseas and Indians at home? The guy that plotted against Congress to commit unconstitutional land grabs?

    Yeah, he hated conflict.
    Denny Reichard, RIP.


  5. #5
    Expert poptab's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Freeman View Post
    Jefferson? The guy that was plotting to kill Muslims overseas and Indians at home? The guy that plotted against Congress to commit unconstitutional land grabs?

    Yeah, he hated conflict.
    Yes all the founding fathers were terrible people some more so than the others. They talked big talk but when they became president they acted like king George.

  6. #6
    Le mot juste 2A_Tom's Avatar

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    Yes, America is a flawed nation. We must be diminished so that other nobler nations may thrive.

    The member formerly known as blue falcon.
    To avoid misunderstandings.



  7. #7
    Shooter

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATM View Post
    An excellent conclusion.
    We could start with an institution that grooms the populace for compliance with the state, no?

  8. #8
    Grandmaster indiucky's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Freeman View Post
    Jefferson? The guy that was plotting to kill Muslims overseas and Indians at home? The guy that plotted against Congress to commit unconstitutional land grabs?

    Yeah, he hated conflict.
    And don't forget what a great friend he was to Meriwether Lewis....Well, at least until Lewis found out about Wilkinson plotting with Spain...Ofcourse Aaron Burr took the hit for that and what happened to Lewis??? Oh that's right he committed "suicide" by shooting himself once in the stomach, then the face, and finally completed his suicide by cutting his own throat...He was bringing back proof of the plot when he committed "suicide" on the Natchez Trace...

    Well at least Jefferson believed in freedom for all...Oh wait...He owned a few...Oh..Yeah...Well at least he kept them hidden from view so it "looked" like he believed in freedom for all.....

    It was some crazy times here in the Ohio Valley in the early 19th century...3/4 of the people wanted to secede so they could send their goods down river to Spain and France....The whole "Burr Conspiracy" and the effect it had down here is neat...A friend of mine actually has a couple of bank notes that came out of Madison, IN anticipating the change...It is really weird to hold one of those in your hand and realize how different things could have been...Supposedly George Rogers Clark was tapped to lead the army of insurrection...Burr is the only one that took a hit...Possibly Lewis...and that's about it...Everyone else came out good and now it's just a footnote in history....

    Oh...And I forgot about Wilkinson...He was heavily inolved and came out pretty unscathed...

    James Wilkinson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    http://www.criminalelement.com/blogs...rder-tony-hays

    Here is a nice summary of the plot.....

    Transcript of The Murder of Meriwether Lewis

    The Murder of Meriwether Lewis
    Lewis' Trip
    Neely's Absence
    Pernier, an accomplice?
    Russel's Accord
    Conclusion
    A Conspiracy That Goes All The Way to The Top
    Our prime suspect is General James Wilkinson.
    "In all our history, there is no more despicable creature." - Theodore Roosevelt
    Served under Benedict Arnold in the Revolutionary War.
    General Wilkinson
    Suicide?
    Russel's Letter Forged
    One piece of evidence largely supporting the suicide theory is the fact Lewis attempted to kill himself at Fort Pickering.
    The only evidence of this was a letter, wrote to President Jefferson, by Captain Russel.
    In 1996, this letter was proven a forgery by the FBI.
    It's possible it was forged by Neely or Wilkinson to incriminate Lewis' suicide.
    A New Republic?
    Wilkinson has been confirmed to have wanted to separate Kentucky from America and join it with Spain as a new republic. Why not the whole Louisiana territory?
    Motive
    The Burr Conspiracy
    Wilkinson is also confirmed to have conspired with vice president Aaron Burr, the man who murdered Alexander Hamilton.
    Burr came to Wilkinson for help to colonize spanish territory, and claim it as an independent country
    One of Jefferson's last assignments for Lewis was to investigate suspected conspirators with Burr in a St. Louis office.
    It is possible Lewis found evidence of Wilkinson's alliance with Burr, and was reporting to Jefferson when the General wiped away the evidence from Lewis.
    Lewis was heading to DC, accompanied by a loyal servant Pernier.
    Along the way, he suffered from malaria and had to stay at Fort Pickering, under the eye of Captain Gilbert Russel.
    Murder
    According to Neely, just before the group reached Grinder's Inn, two of their horses ran off, and he returned to find Lewis dead.
    He accounted for Lewis' death in a a letter to Jefferson, saying he was indeed chasing down runaway horses.
    The discovery of certain court documents says otherwise. They show that the time Neely said he was chasing down horses was actually spent in Franklin, Tennessee, a two day's ride from the Grinder Inn.
    We have more than one theory to why Wilkinson could have wanted to wipe out Lewis.
    First, it could have been out of pure jealousy. Wilkinson's governance of the Louisiana Territory had been stripped for Lewis.
    http://www.examiner.com/article/jame...essful-traitor
    z
    http://www.criminalelement.com/blogs...rder-tony-hays
    http://my.ilstu.edu/~ftmorn/cjhistor...tud/lewis.html
    The Louisiana Territory
    http://my.ilstu.edu/~ftmorn/cjhistor...tud/lewis.html
    http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/ci1/ch1d.htm
    http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/ci1/ch1d.htm
    http://www.lewisandclarktravel.com/i...piracy_part_1/
    Aaron Burr
    http://www.criminalelement.com/blogs...rder-tony-hays
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bz5j...NFk/edit?pli=1
    Or, it could have been more political. If Lewis had been murdered, perhaps Wilkinson believed he would regain his former job
    He was confirmed to have sworn loyalty to Spain, an enemy of America at the time. It's possible he was working for Spain to gain leadership of a large portion of America under Spain's guidance as a spy
    Or, it could have been more political. If Lewis had been murdered, perhaps Wilkinson believed he would regain his former job.
    He was confirmed to have sworn loyalty to Spain, an enemy of America at the time. It's possible he was working for Spain to gain leadership of a large portion of America under Spain's guidance as a spy.
    Fort Pickering
    Word got out of Lewis' "suicide attempts"
    It is possible the cause of this was the malaria, which gave the symptons of delirium and paranoia
    When Lewis was healthy enough to head out, Russel himself offered to accompany Lewis to D.C.
    Russel's commander, Wilkinson, denied the request
    Instead, Wilkinson's own man, Neelly went out of his own way to join Lewis and Pernier after they had left the fort
    http://hnn.us/article/1758
    When Lewis was healthy enough to head out, Russel himself offered to accompany Lewis to D.C..
    Russel's commander,
    Wilkinson
    , denied the request.
    Instead, Wilkinson's own man, Neely, went out of his own way to join Lewis and Pernier after they had left the fort.
    Neely was accompanied by his own servant.

    http://hnn.us/article/1758
    Grinder Inn
    How could Neely have accurately accounted for the death if he was so far away?
    This leaves Lewis, Pernier, Neely's servant, Mrs. Grinder, and her children at the scene of the crime.
    Suspecting Wilkinson as the mastermind of the murder, and Neely his accomplice, one would reach the conclusion that Neely's servant pulled the trigger.
    The body revealed two bullet wounds, one in the head and one in the chest, along with several knife wounds, suggesting a struggle...
    http://www.criminalelement.com/blogs...rder-tony-hays
    If there was a struggle, would Pernier have aided Neely's servant?
    One would think no, due to the fact he was Lewis' servant.
    However, after Lewis died, Pernier trekked all the way to Virginia, to inform Lewis' mother of the death.
    His mother believed Pernier killed Lewis, apparently seeing through the servant.
    She chased Pernier off her property with her rifle.
    He shortly killed himself, apparently not collecting $240 he said Lewis owed him.
    Did he feel guilty, and wished to confess before he killed himself?
    http://hnn.us/article/1758
    Lewis' Mother
    In a letter to President Jefferson, Captain Russel wrote how Lewis had an alcohol problem, and Neely encouraged Lewis to drink, even when he had had his fill.
    Russel also wrote how he believed Pernier was an accomplice, judging from Mrs. Grinder's testimony alone.
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bz5j...NFk/edit?pli=1
    There are too many holes in the suicide theory for it to be correct.
    First, Lewis was a skilled marksman. Why would he need to take two shots?
    If he had killed himself with his own gun, he would have been using a .69 caliber pistol. One shot is PLENTY.
    .69 Caliber Pistol
    He also had knife wounds.
    http://www.criminalelement.com/blogs...rder-tony-hays
    From all the sources used before...
    Wilkinson is the mastermind, with multiple possible motives including erasing incriminating evidence, jealousy, taking control of the Louisiana territory as a Spanish spy, converting it into a Spanish country, or converting it into an independent country.
    He rejected Captain Russel's request to guide Lewis, and instead sent Neely.
    Neely disappeared, making his testimony heresy
    .He also gave Lewis excessive amounts of alcohol, to incriminate him for suicide.
    Neely's servant murdered Lewis, possibly with the help of Perdier, who Russel found guilty.
    Perdier traveled to Virginia to tell Lewis' mother, who afterwords, believed Perdier was guilty
    Perdier kills himself.
    Lewis had multiple gunshot and knife wounds, from a .69 caliber pistol, making suicide improbable.
    The letter Russel wrote to Jefferson accounting for Lewis' suicide attempts was forged.
    http://www.criminalelement.com/blogs...rder-tony-hays
    Last edited by indiucky; 10-31-2014 at 09:33.

  9. #9
    Grandmaster patience0830's Avatar

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    Thread killing historian.
    Just call me lollipop.

  10. #10
    Grandmaster indiucky's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by patience0830 View Post
    Thread killing historian.

    Thank you sir....Nicest compliment I have ever gotten on INGO...With your permission I will use that as my tagline...

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