....And He Won't Pardon Him Why?

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  • Kutnupe14

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    Indiana Gov. Mike Pence angered many last month when he refused to pardon an innocent man, prompting questions of whether his status as vice presidential nominee for the Republican party affected his decision-making.
    Why Mike Pence won?t grant pardon to exonerated Indiana man - CSMonitor.com

    Hasn't Pence pardoned felons that actually committed the crimes they were accused? This surely reflects on his fitness as an executive. Even the prosecuting attorney wrote the governor asking for a pardon. An innocent man deserves his rights back, and even moreso the expansion of opportunities.
     

    Fargo

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    In a state of acute Pork-i-docis
    There is definitely something of a Paul Harvey here on the legal process that led to his apparent current status of convicted of something he didn't do. Whatever that process was, the article does a terrible job of laying it out. If the prosecutor is in agreement as to his innocence, I don't understand why an agreed to PCR isn't being done but I'm sure there is some reason for that. Maybe the current elected prosecutor isn't on board?

    Either way, the pardon power largely exists so that screw ups in the judicial process can be remedied. In my opinion it is a shame that so many executives are too terrified to exercise it in instances where they clearly should.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    There is definitely something of a Paul Harvey here on the legal process that led to his apparent current status of convicted of something he didn't do. Whatever that process was, the article does a terrible job of laying it out. If the prosecutor is in agreement as to his innocence, I don't understand why an agreed to PCR isn't being done but I'm sure there is some reason for that. Maybe the current elected prosecutor isn't on board?

    Either way, the pardon power largely exists so that screw ups in the judicial process can be remedied. In my opinion it is a shame that so many executives are too terrified to exercise it in instances where they clearly should.

    Essentially, the (single) guy who he was convicted with (who he didn't know), was also exonerated. He was given the choice to be let out immediately and keep the conviction, or stay in jail and fight the conviction. That guy fought, and won millions in a civil hearing. Cooper had a wife and kids, so after spending almost 20 years in prison, he wanted out immediately, so he took the conviction, stating that his family had been homeless on occasion, and he wanted out immediately to help out. Pence is denying the pardon, because he hasn't exhausted all his legal remedies. Apparently he wants him to go back to court.
     

    Fargo

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    In a state of acute Pork-i-docis
    Essentially, the (single) guy who he was convicted with (who he didn't know), was also exonerated. He was given the choice to be let out immediately and keep the conviction, or stay in jail and fight the conviction. That guy fought, and won millions in a civil hearing. Cooper had a wife and kids, so after spending almost 20 years in prison, he wanted out immediately, so he took the conviction, stating that his family had been homeless on occasion, and he wanted out immediately to help out. Pence is denying the pardon, because he hasn't exhausted all his legal remedies. Apparently he wants him to go back to court.
    There is still definitely a Paul Harvey in that chain of events. It sounds to me like the prosecutor wanted to retry him after a successful PCR or federal Habeus petition. A whole bunch of things are being left out here. They probably don't change my opinion of what Pence should do, but I guarantee you there is a rest of the story.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    I would say that we are seeing an example of why Pence will make a much better VP than governor or president. The man takes so little independent initiative that it makes me wonder how he manages to motivate himself to take a crap without a resolution from the legislature.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Essentially, the (single) guy who he was convicted with (who he didn't know), was also exonerated. He was given the choice to be let out immediately and keep the conviction, or stay in jail and fight the conviction.

    ...that makes very little sense. I'm not about to claim the court system needs to make sense, but I'm agreeing with Fargo that there's more to this than being presented.

    That said, I'm not a fan of the executive power to pardon. It smacks of feudal lords and the authority to ignore the law and the will of the people (via the jury), and comes with no penalties for misuse or misapplication.
     

    Fargo

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    In a state of acute Pork-i-docis
    ...that makes very little sense. I'm not about to claim the court system needs to make sense, but I'm agreeing with Fargo that there's more to this than being presented.

    That said, I'm not a fan of the executive power to pardon. It smacks of feudal lords and the authority to ignore the law and the will of the people (via the jury), and comes with no penalties for misuse or misapplication.
    Mike Dukakis begs to differ. Strenuously. Executives very seldom issue pardons precisely because of the political penalties for if anything goes wrong.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    ...that makes very little sense. I'm not about to claim the court system needs to make sense, but I'm agreeing with Fargo that there's more to this than being presented.

    That said, I'm not a fan of the executive power to pardon. It smacks of feudal lords and the authority to ignore the law and the will of the people (via the jury), and comes with no penalties for misuse or misapplication.

    What more, could there possibly be that an innocent man shouldn't be pardoned after serving a lengthy sentence? I'm just trying to figure it out. Is there some other crime that this guy was guilty of that makes Pence say "well screw him?" Is he worried the state might have to pay out some massive sum to a guy who unjustly lost 2 decades of his life. Give me an idea of what "more" there could possibly to this?
    And I can understand the dislike of the pardon. But the power does exist, and if ever there was a case for it to be used....
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Give me an idea of what "more" there could possibly to this?

    but legal complications left the stain of his felony conviction on record.
    such as?

    When the evidence was discovered, a judge gave Cooper two options: stay in jail while seeking a new trial to overturn the original conviction, or walk free with a felony conviction on his record.
    This is the part that makes no sense to me. Why can he not seek a new trial now that he's out?
     

    Kutnupe14

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    such as?

    This is the part that makes no sense to me. Why can he not seek a new trial now that he's out?

    He can have a new trial. But why should he, given the circumstances that released him, and further, how much confidence would you have in a trial after serving 20 years due to a wrongful conviction?... and he now has asked for a new trial.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    He can have a new trial. But why should he, given the circumstances that released him, and further, how much confidence would you have in a trial after serving 20 years due to a wrongful conviction?... and he now has asked for a new trial.

    Cool. He should have done that 3 years ago. Why "get out of jail now and keep the conviction" or "walk free and keep it"? So why make it sound like he can't have a new trial and his only hope is Lord Pence's feudal authority of veto? That's the something more to it.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    such as?

    This is the part that makes no sense to me. Why can he not seek a new trial now that he's out?

    Those complications would involve not only the obvious 2A issues, but also a great deal of difficulty getting a job that amounts to anything, and also potential complications renting property anywhere that isn't inherently dangerous.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    Cool. He should have done that 3 years ago. Why "get out of jail now and keep the conviction" or "walk free and keep it"? So why make it sound like he can't have a new trial and his only hope is Lord Pence's feudal authority of veto? That's the something more to it.

    The better question is why Pence pardoned two other people, but not this guy. This case is the first of it's kind in Indiana, I believe.
     

    Fargo

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    In a state of acute Pork-i-docis
    If you aren't up for re-election, what penalty is there?
    Well, that's a bit of a horse of a different color than your original post. You have just excluded the vast majority of politicians from our calculus. That said, impeachment comes to mind plus the damage done to your party. Most importantly, it does worse than nothing for your post office earning abilities.

    I am not saying it can't be abused, it's certainly can and has been. That said, it is not consequence free as your first post stated.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Well, that's a bit of a horse of a different color than your original post. You have just excluded the vast majority of politicians from our calculus. That said, impeachment comes to mind plus the damage done to your party. Most importantly, it does worse than nothing for your post office earning abilities.

    I am not saying it can't be abused, it's certainly can and has been. That said, it is not consequence free as your first post stated.

    Slightly tongue in cheek, but holy crap can you lawyer more?

    How about no legal penalty? I figured that the public opinion, people calling you names, etc. was understood.

    What penalty will Obama suffer for his pardons? Pardoning drug dealers will make him less popular post-office? Lulz.
     

    Bill of Rights

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    Where's the bacon?
    I have not read the article. I did, however, write to Mike Pence a while back and asked him that, since WV had changed their reciprocity law, such that any state that recognized their permit would be recognized there, would he sign the required letter from the governor of the other state (had to be from him) that I had written for him, and send it on.

    I got a reply from the Indiana State Police, telling me that they would do nothing to change the law of another state.
    I called the trooper who had written me, informed him that
    1. I wasn't asking ISP to try to change another state's laws, as that was beyond their purview
    2. No other state's law needed changed, as it had already been done
    3. I had not even written ISP, but rather the governor.

    He agreed, finally, that the WV law was clear, and that the governor needed to send WV a letter to make the reciprocity happen, but declined to return to Gov. Pence that recommendation.

    One of our own state Representatives went to Mr. Pence in his office, face to face, and asked him to send that letter. No letter was sent. I have not been told what the answer was that the Representative received.

    I even wrote the letter for him:
    To whom it may concern:
    The laws of the state of Indiana recognize all handgun carry permits and licenses from all states and other governments

    Sincerely,


    Michael Pence, Governor of Indiana

    or something similar.


    The above are facts. Above my closing, below, will be found conjecture.

    As Mr. Pence was a Congressman for a while, I suggest that perhaps the Beltway mentality may have set in firmly. In Washington, it is said that nothing happens without something done in return. If you want my vote on this bill, you have to vote as I wish on that bill. If you can't do that, a donation to my political campaign would induce me to look favorably upon your request for my vote.

    Again, that is all conjecture; I don't know that this is what has happened. To my knowledge, no one paid Mike Pence to sign that letter and put it in the mailbox, so he didn't do it.

    So maybe Mr. Pence failed to receive a donation to his political campaign fund along with the request for a pardon?

    Who can say?

    Blessings,
    Bill
     

    IndyDave1776

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    Who can say?

    What I feel comfortable saying is that I believe Pence will make a good VP but not a good president should that ever become an issue. What he has proven to my satisfaction is that he does well when there is someone with a modicum of sense to tell him what to do, but is incapable of taking independent initiative or exercising anything approaching good judgment while doing so.
     
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