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  • Bummer

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Nov 5, 2010
    1,202
    12
    West side of Indy
    Do the people who are "in the know" actually know what the Constitution says?

    Article V, Clause 1:

    "The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress"

    The parts relevant to my point:

    "or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments,"

    So they can propose Amendments there.

    "or by Conventions in three fourths thereof"

    And vote for them there.

    Everything depends on how the Congress reacts once 34 States sign on.

    I think it's a fine idea, assuming we can trust our politicians.

    So, what could possibly go wrong?
     

    Bummer

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Nov 5, 2010
    1,202
    12
    West side of Indy
    More to the point, if the goons in Washington won`t obey the Constitution now, what makes us believe they`d obey any new amendments?

    I find it quite impossible to argue with that, although I don't see it as a reason to not try. Hope springs eternal, and all that.
     

    Vespasianus

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 6, 2017
    23
    1
    Columbus
    More to the point, if the goons in Washington won`t obey the Constitution now, what makes us believe they`d obey any new amendments?

    I've little doubt that any CoS-approved amendment(s) that the Establishment (Dems & GOP either/ both) don't like would be legally challenged, blocked by lower courts, and eventually dragged to the USSC ... which [unless composed of 5 strong Constitutionalists, of which maybe 3 could be termed that now] would find a way to negate it, just like was done in finding a way to acquiesce to Obamacare's mandates.

    That would also probably be the "Final Straw", IMHO.
     

    gregr

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 1, 2016
    4,300
    113
    West-Central
    I've little doubt that any CoS-approved amendment(s) that the Establishment (Dems & GOP either/ both) don't like would be legally challenged, blocked by lower courts, and eventually dragged to the USSC ... which [unless composed of 5 strong Constitutionalists, of which maybe 3 could be termed that now] would find a way to negate it, just like was done in finding a way to acquiesce to Obamacare's mandates.

    That would also probably be the "Final Straw", IMHO.

    What you`ve said is likely true. It would behoove us however, to consider exactly why we`re in the place we`re in. Just a quick rundown would be to say that We the People became 1). Lazy. Neglecting our duty as citizens, to not only know and understand how our government works, but being actively involved in it`s functioning. And 2). We`ve not held our elected employees accountable for their actions and votes, especially in regards to staying true to, and honoring the Constitution. And 3). We remained mostly silent when government began to dole out perks to citizens that the Constitution grants no authority to provide. We are at least partially responsible for the monster that`s been created, and now, I envision no way to undo this mess. Washington is tyoo powerful. Even our local police forces have become militarized, and America has rapidly become a police state. All that just to say, the Republic is in great distress.
     

    hoosierdoc

    Freed prisoner
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Apr 27, 2011
    25,987
    149
    Galt's Gulch
    I've little doubt that any CoS-approved amendment(s) that the Establishment (Dems & GOP either/ both) don't like would be legally challenged, blocked by lower courts, and eventually dragged to the USSC ... which [unless composed of 5 strong Constitutionalists, of which maybe 3 could be termed that now] would find a way to negate it, just like was done in finding a way to acquiesce to Obamacare's mandates.

    That would also probably be the "Final Straw", IMHO.

    how exactly can you go to the Supreme Court to challenge a ratified constitutional amendment?
     

    BugI02

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 4, 2013
    31,886
    149
    Columbus, OH
    You would endlessly challenge the specifics of how the amendment was applied to America at large, tying up the actual changes embodied in the amendment in the minutae
     

    Bummer

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Nov 5, 2010
    1,202
    12
    West side of Indy

    I don't exactly disagree with what he's saying. The State Legislatures had their power taken away and by any and all means they need to get it back.

    We the People did ordain and establish, so we have a duty to watch over the three branches of the General Government to see that they are doing what we authorized them to do. I believe they've distorted their authority to an extent King George III would have found quite exciting.

    I am by no means suggesting we not do it. We desperately need to do something and this is better than the sole remaining alternative. For now.

    Here's the problem I see: I don't trust ANY politician. Those who would seek power should never be handed power. Power does not corrupt so much as corruptible people seek power. I want my representative to go kicking and screaming "Next time you've got to do it." To which I would reluctantly say "Ok, but next time he's got to do it." (Pointing at you.) Followed by numerous etceteras pointing willy-nilly around the landscape. Only those who don't want it should be bushwhacked into doing it. Unfortunately that's not the way it works.

    I quoted Article 5. The portions I extracted represent the concern I have. Congress could screw the whole thing up. Contrary to the denials, according to the Constitution the representatives at the convention could potentially offer their own amendments and they could vote on them there. Theoretically that could lead to amendments passed by as few as 25 States.

    I'm counting on the greed of the State politicians to prevent that from happening. Counting on the greed of a politician is never a sure thing.

    So, again, what could possibly go wrong?
     

    Vespasianus

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 6, 2017
    23
    1
    Columbus
    What you`ve said is likely true. It would behoove us however, to consider exactly why we`re in the place we`re in. Just a quick rundown would be to say that We the People became 1). Lazy. Neglecting our duty as citizens, to not only know and understand how our government works, but being actively involved in it`s functioning. And 2). We`ve not held our elected employees accountable for their actions and votes, especially in regards to staying true to, and honoring the Constitution. And 3). We remained mostly silent when government began to dole out perks to citizens that the Constitution grants no authority to provide. We are at least partially responsible for the monster that`s been created, and now, I envision no way to undo this mess. Washington is tyoo powerful. Even our local police forces have become militarized, and America has rapidly become a police state. All that just to say, the Republic is in great distress.

    Gregr, I think you're absolutely right about the General Citizenry's cuplpability in allowing this. Once I actually make it into state and get a wee bit settled, I need to search you out for a conversation ... I think we've similar views. Personally, I've been registered and voted Libertarian the past few years, ever since the 2008 bailouts proved the sheer corruption of the GOP beyond any shade of doubt ... but while I identify closest with that party, it's for lack of any party resembling my own views, which I'd call "Citizens Respect". Respect for one's civil obligations, respect for others' rights, insistence on being accorded the same by fellow citizens and gov't.

    Longer-term, I may well take up the torch on this issue. A non-profit Citizens Education program, linked with a blog, YouTube videos, etc., that seeks to educate and train our fellow citizens (instead of merely seeking their vote and acquiescence) may be in my future.
     

    KLB

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    Sep 12, 2011
    23,009
    77
    Porter County
    I don't exactly disagree with what he's saying. The State Legislatures had their power taken away and by any and all means they need to get it back.

    We the People did ordain and establish, so we have a duty to watch over the three branches of the General Government to see that they are doing what we authorized them to do. I believe they've distorted their authority to an extent King George III would have found quite exciting.

    I am by no means suggesting we not do it. We desperately need to do something and this is better than the sole remaining alternative. For now.

    Here's the problem I see: I don't trust ANY politician. Those who would seek power should never be handed power. Power does not corrupt so much as corruptible people seek power. I want my representative to go kicking and screaming "Next time you've got to do it." To which I would reluctantly say "Ok, but next time he's got to do it." (Pointing at you.) Followed by numerous etceteras pointing willy-nilly around the landscape. Only those who don't want it should be bushwhacked into doing it. Unfortunately that's not the way it works.

    I quoted Article 5. The portions I extracted represent the concern I have. Congress could screw the whole thing up. Contrary to the denials, according to the Constitution the representatives at the convention could potentially offer their own amendments and they could vote on them there. Theoretically that could lead to amendments passed by as few as 25 States.

    I'm counting on the greed of the State politicians to prevent that from happening. Counting on the greed of a politician is never a sure thing.

    So, again, what could possibly go wrong?
    Where are you getting that they could ratify an Amendment at the convention with only 25 states?

    when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress"
    Looks like 3/4 of the States have to ratify either through Legislatures or state conventions.
     

    Bummer

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Nov 5, 2010
    1,202
    12
    West side of Indy
    Where are you getting that they could ratify an Amendment at the convention with only 25 states?


    Looks like 3/4 of the States have to ratify either through Legislatures or state conventions.

    "or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments,"

    "or by Conventions in three fourths thereof"

    If the minimum number of States go to the convention (not saying they will, just discussing possibilities), and they ratify there, it would only take 25. (2/3 of 50 = 34, 3/4 of 34 = 25)

    Everyone is talking about this on the basis of "what we think they'll do". As far as I can tell that includes ALL of the cheerleaders - websites, talk shows, and all. I'm going straight to the Constitution and looking at what they can do if they decide to actually follow the Constitution for the first time in well over a hundred years. Pigs may not actually fly, but I'm betting they can be launched from a trebuchet.

    Since I absolutely do NOT trust ANY politicians I like to look at the worst then hope for the best. If we honestly evaluate how things can go wrong there should be fewer surprises when things don't exactly go right.
     
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